Taiwan Shrimp Tank (84 Liters)

[eozen81]

Hi guys,

Cheers from Istanbul/Turkey

After I got successful about my Cardinal tank (you can see the journal link from my signature) I decided to take my chances with Taiwan Bee shrimps. It was long research period that I spent to make sure building the tank with the best conditions as much as possible I could.

Size: 70x35x32h (84 liters)
Filter System:
- HMF Filter
- Sunsun Hw 603 B Mini Cannister Filter
- Undergravel Filter (PoweredWith Air Pump)
Lighting: Daylight, blue and white LED
Water chemistry: RO water + GH+ Mineral
Substrate: ADA Amazonia Normal type (1 package aka 9 liters)
Others: Mangrove, Mini Java Fern, Indian almond and some other seasonal leaves, Borneo Wild Bee Ball

1st days setup: 05/10/2014
pH 5.3 
TDS: 220 microsiemens
GH: 6-7
kH: 1
Temp: 21.5 C
 
- Since I had used HMF Filter (because it makes maximum bio area) I had to use high density sponge to make sure shrimplets will not pass through the sponge. Here below you can see the sponge I used:
 


- For the substrate:
Bottom 0: I had used Borneo Wild Minerax and Enlive at the bottom
Bottom 1:Undergravel filter
Bottom 2: A thin mosquito net to make sure shrimplets will not go to the bottom
Bottom 3: Sera Siporax Bio Ring
Bottom 4: ADA Amazonia Normal


The tank is now only 2 days old and in cycling period. I want it to cycle around 6-8 weeks but not sure If I should do water changes on a weekly basis to make sure ammonia to down or put a guppy into it and no water changes for 2 months or something, what do you propose?
 
 
The other set up pictures are below. I will keep you guys posted about the progress.
 
Regards
Emre

[DETAquarium]

Great Start!! Any specific TBs your planning to keep? Ever have problems with shrimp making it through your HMF?

[High5's]

Reminds me of Euro style aqua culture. Very nice!

[eozen81]

Great Start!! Any specific TBs your planning to keep? Ever have problems with shrimp making it through your HMF?

Thank you. I am planning a colorful tank not a spesific Taiwan. Pinto, Blue bolt, Red Ruby those are so colourful and awesome but also price is important to find here in Turkey about hmf, yes i heard baby shrimps tend to pass through it if you are not careful to use a low ppi sponge.

Any advice about ADA cycling?

Reminds me of Euro style aqua culture. Very nice!

Thank you, yes I am from Europe and thus you are right about the culture Any advice about ADA cycling?

[countryboy12484]

Use mk breed silver powder and bio digest, combined with a established sponge filter... I cycled my tank in a little under 3 weeks

[DETAquarium]

ADA cycling your trying to accomplish two things, 1) Reduce Ammonia and Nitrite to 0 prior to adding shrimp 2) Generate Biofilm. Usually the first 3-4 weeks I do quite the number of water changes, 1st week on my most recent setups I did a 20% water change almost every other day, then a 50% on the weekend. 2nd week I did 2 20% water changes and 1 50% on weekend, third week 1 50%, after just fill for evaporation. I also added floating plants this time to combat the ammonia. I think by week 4-5 I was free and clear of ammonia and nitrite but waited until the end of week 6 to add shrimp.

 

Prior to adding ADA I always add a bacterial product, like Bacter 100, Bacter AE, MK-Breed Z Silver Powder, etc. During the cycling process I would add Bacter AE/MK-Breed Z Silver Powder to help increase the production of beneficial bacteria and biofilm.

 

This is what I do, most people have their own way of doing this.

[High5's]

There are many way's to cycle ADA aquasoil for Taiwan bee I think the old standard works well 2 month cycle, yes it takes time basically one month to leach ammonia one month to age the tank. There are many product/methods that can speed up the process, nothing beats time and patience. Using a seeded sponge filter really help's and mulm bombing even though it's messy is very effective way to introduce beneficial bacteria.

[EricM]

standard hmf recommended for shrimp is 30ppm. you should have no problems with them getting through that.

 

like High5's said there are many ways to cycle amazonia, but standard option i'd recommend is (too late now) old sea mud under your substrate and any of the many bacters available, and time. lots of time.

just let it do its thing.

 

there are no magic wonder products that will cycle amazonia any faster.

[eozen81]

Waiting is no problem for me, I am a patient man lol. My hesitation is to do frequent and high rate water changes or not doing water changes and adding guppy into the tank? As @DETAquarium said, everyone has their own methods but this is my first time so I am really lazy to do high rate water change every other day if it's not mandatory

[High5's]

standard hmf recommended for shrimp is 30ppm. you should have no problems with them getting through that.

 

like High5's said there are many ways to cycle amazonia, but standard option i'd recommend is (too late now) old sea mud under your substrate and any of the many bacters available, and time. lots of time.

just let it do its thing.

 

there are no magic wonder products that will cycle amazonia any faster.

This is true. I have read that the ammonia is bonded to the clay in Aquasoil a month or 2 of leeching with depth of 2 to 3 inches is pretty standard no matter what. I used old sea mud, bt-9 and lowkeys speed sand dosed bt-9 day 1-3-9 eight 100% w/c double dose bt-9 after w/c and mulm bombing + a month and 3 day's before it stopped leaching ammonia I use a depth of 3 1/2 inches. Many experienced shrimp keepers will tell you to age the tank for another month to avoid possible micro spikes. Times are changing there are products that we couldn't get or weren't on the market yet things are advancing very quickly to fast cycle products/ non leaching substrates that are shrimp safe in day's time. ADA + 2 month cycle has been gold standard for keeping sensitive shrimp. If we find easy less complex/time consuming methods I can only see it being good for the hobby.

[EricM]

This is true. I have read that the ammonia is bonded to the clay in Aquasoil a month or 2 of leeching with depth of 2 to 3 inches is pretty standard no matter what. I used old sea mud, bt-9 and lowkeys speed sand dosed bt-9 day 1-3-9 eight 100% w/c double dose bt-9 after w/c and mulm bombing + a month and 3 day's before it stopped leaching ammonia I use a depth of 3 1/2 inches. Many experienced shrimp keepers will tell you to age the tank for another month to avoid possible micro spikes. Times are changing there are products that we couldn't get or weren't on the market yet things are advancing very quickly to fast cycle products/ non leaching substrates that are shrimp safe in day's time. ADA + 2 month cycle has been gold standard for keeping sensitive shrimp. If we find easy less complex/time consuming methods I can only see it being good for the hobby.

 

totally agree. i'm looking forward to premium shrimp substrates that dont force us to try different ways of forcing a cycle to happen faster. 

[High5's]

I want a hard fired substrate like akadama that's rechargeable by baking then soaking in humic/fluvic micro/macro elements. I would be all over the new Glasgarten substrate it's hard fired.

[Soothing Shrimp]

I think there's a difference between just shrimp substrate with ph lowering properties and shrimp/plant substrate though.  For instance UP sand doesn't leech any ammonia or ammonium at all, and can be used immediately- but it is not made for plants.  I'm sure there are similar substrates.

[Tigori]

I want a hard fired substrate like akadama that's rechargeable by baking then soaking in humic/fluvic micro/macro elements. I would be all over the new Glasgarten substrate it's hard fired.

The enviroment soil series?

[eozen81]

For ADA cycling, here in my country "Old Sea Mud" is not being sold, so I have to think about other solutions like water change or adding fish or maybe even adding a plant like bambu

 

[High5's]

The enviroment soil series?

Yes sir! Glasgarten Environment soil.

[eozen81]

One of the issues that I will probably have to deal with is cooling this tank in the summer days. I don't have an air conditioner at the room. One of my friends is using Temperature Controller STC-1000 with a simple cooler fan on top of the tank as you can see below. He confirmed he had no issues for 2 summers but only has to top off about the decreasing water which I can live with
 

 

This is a video showing the operation of STC 1000

 

[eozen81]

Oh.... Only 4 days? Then it will take awhile before you get the bacteria bloom. FYI. Borneowild's products are not the best in the market, I don't want to be too direct on the comment, but you know what I mean. 

 

Strangely, if it has been 4 days, your pH should not be 7.6 and 600uS. Did you flush the tank when you first top up the water? 

 

What I will suggest you to do in order to accelerate the cycling now are:

• If you have not do it, add a bag of activated carbon into your filter. This will help you to clean the water when all the ammonium and humus substances leech out.
• Don't change any water until you see NH3/NH4 and NO2 go up and down back to zero.

Let's discuss in your journal and not hijacking other's thread.

No you misunderstood me,

 

My tank water for Taiwan is now 220 microsiemens and 5.3 pH. My tap water is 600 microsiemens 7.6pH

Ok I will try to do what you advised up here my friend. Thanks a lot.

[DETAquarium]

Yes sir! Glasgarten Environment soil.

 

I am looking forward to this substrate as well.

[Shrimpy Daddy]

Hi Emre,

 

Let's continue from where we are left off at the other thread.

 

I just saw your picture and it has UGF. Just a curious question, did you take up the user manual in the ADA Aquasoil bag and read it before? Actually, it said that it is designed not to be used with UGF. The problem with ADA AS is that it drops a lot of crumbs and these crumbs will clogged your UGF.

 

In addition, there are some tests performed in more scientific methods and discovered tank with UGF will introduce much more organics into the water column than the one without.

[eozen81]

Hello again,

 

If you pay attention I also used mosquito net between ADA and UGF. Here in Turkey there are very successful breeders who are using UGF and no issue at all with ADA, I called them "masters" here and those masters spesifically use UGF to make sure beneficial bacteria grow up ınder ADA. But persnonally I am only mimicking them no experience at all. Hopefully you will get wrong and they will be right for my own good   

[Greenteam]

I never had issues with clogging and I put the ADA soil right on the UGF with no net. My planted tank was 3+ years with ADA and UGF never clogged.

 

In college I setup two identical small tanks just one had no UGF(too broke to get 2nd one lol) and when I would do a WC the ADA soil would take longer buffer PH down. But on other tank that had the same setup just UGF added the PH would drop within hours. Same water and same routine only difference was the time it took for ADA soil to do it's thing.

[Shrimpy Daddy]

Hello again,

 

If you pay attention I also used mosquito net between ADA and UGF. Here in Turkey there are very successful breeders who are using UGF and no issue at all with ADA, I called them "masters" here and those masters spesifically use UGF to make sure beneficial bacteria grow up ınder ADA. But persnonally I am only mimicking them no experience at all. Hopefully you will get wrong and they will be right for my own good   

 

No worries, I know a lot of people uses UGF.

 

I think I will share with you my knowledge and it will be your own discretion. However, it is a bit long winded and bear with me.

 

As you know, the best breeder in the world are Japanese and German, excluding those countries that produce for mass-market. Japanese breeder traditionally believe in over-filtration by using multiple canister filter cascaded together. Whereas for the German counterpart, believe in simple but effective method on the filtration, such as hambuger mattenfilter.

 

Sometime down the road, the Japanese started to think that by leveraging the substrate as filter media can increase the total surface for the bacteria to live; I think it might be Shirakura who started this trend. But with this approach, there are a few considerations in their thoughts that made UGF works:

1. Once the substrate is exhausted, they will change and usually within a year.
2. They can do that easily because they have a lot of small tanks and capable of moving them easily.
3. The UGF will be driven by powerful canister filter or powerhead and will minimise clogging (air-driven type is not powerful enough, unless you have massive air-pump)
4. Japanese have a culture of meticulous in doing everything. As such, they willing to put in 100% effort and all the time needed to clean and maintain the tank. However, not everyone can do what they do in day to day tasks. (I'm half-Jap and live in Japan 4 to 6 months a year and I know their culture very well)
5. Using the substrate with UGF will be able to produce a substrate that has 1 more benefit when competing with ADA AS. For this point I have been question a lot on all those substrates that advertise to have nothing, except buffering pH, but selling much more expensive than ADA AS. Imagine, you are paying more for less. Then might as well just use inert substrate. LOL!!! This is why, nowadays I am using inert substrate that are not for aquarium.

As such, if you want UGF to work like a charm, you will need to follow exactly how it was designed for initially and, not mix and match the approach. On top of all these, it is better to have a low micron filter media that will filter all waste material the water coming from the UGF to remove any waste material and wash it or change it weekly.

 

That's all for how to make UGF work best. Now let me tell you the downside of UGF, especially if you don't follow the way it is designed for. In an aquarium, a healthy substrate will serve the following purpose:

1. Collect waste material and ensure they stay there and not polluting the water.
2. Critters and microbes will flourish within the substrate to breakdown and/or ferment the waste.
3. The waste materials will be breakdown and/or ferment into non-toxic and useful substances such as humus.
4. Humus will produce organic acid (humic and fulvic acid) that will recharge back to your substrate.
5. Substrate will collect precipitated minerals too.
6. The organic acid will dissolve and/or chelated the precipitated minerals and recycle back into water column or feed the plant slowly

If you are using UGF, it will disrupt the mini-ecosystem in the substrate and all the above will not happen. Like I mentioned above, if you are willing to perform what UGF is designed for, then you have no worries removing the substrate ecosystem.

 

If you are not using UGF in the best working way, the consequences will includes all or some of the following:

1. The UGF will be clogged in some area.
2. The clogged area will be producing a lot of dissolved waste and leeching through the unclogged area. This will causes the water to contain a lot of organics waste.
3. Since the mini-ecosystem is disrupted, the substrate may not recharge itself properly. Even though you see the pH is buffered, it may be buffered with nitric acid instead of organic acid.
4. Precipitated minerals are not recycled, you will need to dose more and more minerals as time goes by.
5. Without the mini-ecosystem, you may not get enough bacteria and zooplankton that can feed shrimps.

Based on these information, like I said, it is up to your own discretion about UGF.

 

Personally, I will never use it because I don't like to rebuild my tank frequently as it is a hard work; I rebuild one of my tank over the weekend and I am still feeling tired till now (probably I'm old). Also, I prefer a naturally balanced tank so that I don't need to pay much attention to it or performing excessive maintenance tasks.

[eozen81]

Thank you my half Japanese friend for these very informative sharing. I've read all and I cannot use inert substrate as my tap and RO water is so high pH. that's why I needed an Active Soil and preferred ADA.

Due to limited time and area I really cannot do frequent water changes or maintenance like Japanese so that's why I am really confused to use UGF, maybe I should really consider to plug it off adn stop working. In this case I will be endingup using 2 main filtration:

1) Cannister filter

2. Hambur MattenFilter

I will talk all of those what you have told here (and thank you again) with my pals here who are breeding Taiwans for a lon time. Because if UGF is also decresaing my ADA's useful life it's not really good, I was thinking to use it for at least 2 years.

[Shrimpy Daddy]

"Because if UGF is also decresaing my ADA's useful life" <--- Just to correct this a bit. UGF may not shorten the life of ADA AS, anyway ADA AS only last within 4 months (usually it only last a month or two for me), it just don't recreate/regenerate the humus substances that supposed to gather at the bottom of the substrate.

 

That's a suggestion for your UGF. Some of my friends who previously plugged in UGF and stopped using them (they found their shrimps do better without UGF), they use UGF only for performing water change. They leverage it to suck out waste water into drain or bucket. In this way, it can clear a little of the waste material at times and help to control it from gathering too much. Maybe, you can use the UGF for this purpose but just don't overly clean it.