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Optimal Temperature for Neos, 82.4?!


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So I was reading some articles today and noticed this one from last year. Now I usually keep my tanks at 72 and I have lots of successful breeding. But this article, though they admit neos are tolerant to a wide range of temps, is very convincing that the optimal temperature for breeding and culture is 82.4°F (28°C). :o Seems a little toasty... Makes me not so stressed about summer months though... :thumbsu:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359132/

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It seems they are mostly looking at maturation and breeding.  It's true that the higher the temperature the faster they grow, and berries hatch.

The reason we choose to keep the shrimp at lower temperatures is they don't die as quickly and bacterial infections are kept to a minimum. ;)

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I remember seeing the difference back in 2008 or so when I had imported some snowball shrimp from Germany (when they were new) and split the order with a friend.  My tank was around 70 degrees because my parents kept their house cold (this was in arizona so lots of AC) and the guy I split them with kept his tank probably in the high 70's (used a heater).  I remember going over there and seeing how large his were compared to mine and how his had already started breeding when mine still looked like juvi's.  We started from the same order so they were all similar size to start.

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2 hours ago, OblongShrimp said:

I remember seeing the difference back in 2008 or so when I had imported some snowball shrimp from Germany (when they were new) and split the order with a friend.  My tank was around 70 degrees because my parents kept their house cold (this was in arizona so lots of AC) and the guy I split them with kept his tank probably in the high 70's (used a heater).  I remember going over there and seeing how large his were compared to mine and how his had already started breeding when mine still looked like juvi's.  We started from the same order so they were all similar size to start.

So in the long run which ones did better or was there no difference?

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So in the long run which ones did better or was there no difference?

Their conclusion was other the optimal culture for neos was at 28 degrees Celsius. They attributed it to metabolic rate due to the the biochemical composition of the organism. No mention of exactly offspring survival, or temp affecting sex. But this could mean gestation is faster and offspring mortality is higher./p>

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Do you know what the article based its information  on? Reason I ask is many global corporations/farms will most likely be breeding in higher temperatures 1) Because there breeding outdoors in hot climates. 2) They are mass breeding, as stated higher temperatures lead to increased breeding.

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On 4/4/2016 at 5:30 AM, DETAquarium said:

Do you know what the article based its information  on? Reason I ask is many global corporations/farms will most likely be breeding in higher temperatures 1) Because there breeding outdoors in hot climates. 2) They are mass breeding, as stated higher temperatures lead to increased breeding.

"

Erik V. Thuesen, Academic Editor
1Biology of Reproduction and Growth in Crustaceans, Department of Biodiversity and Experimental Biology, FCEyN, University of Buenos Aires, Cdad. Univ. C1428EHA, Buenos Aires, Argentina
2IBBEA, CONICET-UBA, Buenos Aires, Argentina
The Evergreen State College, UNITED STATES

1Biology of Reproduction and Growth in Crustaceans, Department of Biodiversity and Experimental Biology, FCEyN, University of Buenos Aires, Cdad. Univ. C1428EHA, Buenos Aires, Argentina

2IBBEA, CONICET-UBA, Buenos Aires, Argentina. The Evergreen State College, UNITED STATES.

"

The research was done at the University of Argentina, Buenos Aires. So as an academic researcher myself, I have to believe it is not done in the interest of corporations and with as little bias as possible. With that being said, many areas of study include optimizing breeding for large scale sustainability which, due to the size of our human population, is directly correlated to mass-production. 

As purpose stated in the article is as follows: "The effect of water temperature on biochemical composition, growth and reproduction of the ornamental shrimp, Neocaridina heteropoda heteropoda, was investigated to determine the optimum temperature for its culture. The effect of embryo incubation temperature on the subsequent performance of juveniles was also evaluated." So the idea was to determine the temperature that they make the most offspring and that is best suited to the best "performance" for the offspring. "Performance" isn't defined, but if you look at the experiment, they were looking at how rapidly the shrimplets developed by measuring their body weight and growth increment at during a thirty day period after hatching, then at the 90 day mark. The warmer (28°C/82.4°F and 32°C/89.6°F) shrimplets simply grew faster in the first month than did the cooler (24°C/75.2°F). However, they show the growth rate declines after the 30-day mark for the warm shrimp and an increase for the cooler. They show that "During the [90 day] growth period, shrimps reached sexual maturity and mated, with the highest proportion of ovigerous females occurring at 28°C." they go on to show that the shrimp at 89°F drop their eggs (duh), positing that this is "indicating a potentially stressful effect of high temperature on ovarian maturation." So the conclusion is that cherries are best suited for rapid sexual maturation and reproduction in about 28°C/82.4°F water.

They mention "Water temperature also influences survival and development of embryos and larvae of decapods [15,16]. A decrease in the incubation period has been reported as a result of increasing temperature for many species [13,1721], and for some of them this has been associated with lower survival, higher energy consumption, and even serious deformities of embryos [20,22]. Moreover, the temperature experienced during embryogenesis may influence larval biomass at hatching and subsequent larval development in decapods [23,24]. Therefore, special care must be taken when temperature is manipulated to accelerate embryonic development," which is basically why we tend to keep our shrimp cooler. The slow larval development tends to lead to less deaths in the offspring.

So yes, this is geared toward high yield culture. Some may argue this is merely for the large scale industry for mass productions, but this is how I see it: the quicker the generations come about and mature, the faster we can experience artificial selection, and thus our final products as shrimp breeders.
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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for bringing this up Mr. F!

 

My brother-in-law and I started with the same batch of TBs at the beginning of April. My tank is typically 21-22oC, while his is 23-24oC. I'd say overall his shrimp aren't any larger than my guys, but since a few weeks ago to yesterday, he has 4 berried shrimp, whereas I have none. The temperature has been one of my main suspect variable for this difference. There are some other plausible variables too (how often we feed, ratio of males to females). 

 

I have an old water heater that I'm tempted to, but don't want to use, as I'm doubtful of the reliability of it. But it does make me want to consider making the water warmer to see if it'll increase the rate of breeding for me. I do agree with you that if you are into the business of breeding, a warmer tank will undoubtedly improve the rate that it happens.

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Thanks for bringing this up Mr. F!

 

My brother-in-law and I started with the same batch of TBs at the beginning of April. My tank is typically 21-22oC, while his is 23-24oC. I'd say overall his shrimp aren't any larger than my guys, but since a few weeks ago to yesterday, he has 4 berried shrimp, whereas I have none. The temperature has been one of my main suspect variable for this difference. There are some other plausible variables too (how often we feed, ratio of males to females). 

 

I have an old water heater that I'm tempted to, but don't want to use, as I'm doubtful of the reliability of it. But it does make me want to consider making the water warmer to see if it'll increase the rate of breeding for me. I do agree with you that if you are into the business of breeding, a warmer tank will undoubtedly improve the rate that it happens.

This is strictly about neos, so be careful with TBs! Neos can withstand higher temps than TBs, so don't make it too warm!

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Just now, Mr. F said:

This is strictly about neos, so be careful with TBs! Neos can withstand higher temps than TBs, so don't make it too warm!

 

That's a very important point to note, thank you!

 

I'm still on the fence on adding the water heater as the tank is in my basement, and it may warm up to 23oC on its own in the coming weeks. I've become quite wary of doing any big changes to my tank in the last few months.

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That's a very important point to note, thank you!

 

I'm still on the fence on adding the water heater as the tank is in my basement, and it may warm up to 23oC on its own in the coming weeks. I've become quite wary of doing any big changes to my tank in the last few months.

Definitely don't go past 24C. But I agree with your natural approach; let summer work its magic.

Another thing you can try is dropping the TDS down over a couple of days to induce molting/breeding by mimicking spring conditions. Do you happen to know your KH, GH, and TDS?

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Just now, Mr. F said:

Definitely don't go past 24C. But I agree with your natural approach; let summer work its magic.

Another thing you can try is dropping the TDS down over a couple of days to induce molting/breeding by mimicking spring conditions. Do you happen to know your KH, GH, and TDS?

 

Yup! KH is 0-1, GH is 5, and TDS is 122.

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Darn, you're already pretty low. You can try a 15% wc with RODI which should put you around 100 ppm. That's pretty low tho. I'd probably let nature take its course on this one!

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My office, which has a thermostat outside my control, allows the temp to swing a bit more on weekend. I have definitely noticed that my plants do far better during the winter(while my shrimp slow down(I have seen temps in the low 60s. The temps in the summer get up into the 80s. The shrimp always explode in population.

 

This is one reason I had been looking for Babaulti shrimp. I figured they could handle the higher temp. I don't know of anything else beside neos that can get into the 80s.

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I lost a full 55gal tank of CRS last summer when my AC conked out over a weekend I was away. All the tanks in the basement were fine but the one on the main floor had a couple hundred cooked shrimp at 28C... was a sad day

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I lost a full 55gal tank of CRS last summer when my AC conked out over a weekend I was away. All the tanks in the basement were fine but the one on the main floor had a couple hundred cooked shrimp at 28C... was a sad day

Yeah, CRS can't hang in such high temps. RCS on the other hand are tough little buggers. I came home after having my friend watch my tanks a couple days last summer. Random heatwave while away and I forgot to tel him about the fans! Uh oh.

By the time I got back the temp had dropped to 83F (28-29C), but the Otos, snails, barbs, tetras, hatchets, and many tropical species all cooked! ...Which leads me to believe the temp must have hit close to 85-90F (30-32C). Freaking out I go to my neo tanks (before I had the spine for breeding Caridina). All fine! Happy as ever. Not a single missing shrimp. Definitely not excited for those moments this summer now that I keep TBs, tibees, taitibees, and tigers... I already ordered extra fans for all my tanks! Lol

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My tank is currently at 80 degrees for the last 4 days and I lost 3 orange rilis in this time, are orange rilis more sensitive than RCS due to their genetics?

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My tank is currently at 80 degrees for the last 4 days and I lost 3 orange rilis in this time, are orange rilis more sensitive than RCS due to their genetics?

It may be due to their genetics, but probably not linked to the rili pattern. It is recessive, but I've never noticed them to be less hardy. Make sure your params are in range. When it's hot, the shrimp grow faster. If the water is too hard or soft they can fail molting and die.

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Just a note: not advocating breeding you're neos in 80+ water. I just found it interesting. I always keep my neos between 70-75.

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Yeah its been 4 now, I'm pretty sure the parameters are good I checked the TDS and it was 161, ammonia is zero, I stopped dosing the tank with ferts as soon as I noticed the temp rising so I could observe the effects of the heat and also did 2 25% water changes last week cause I was cleaning out some algae. The only thing that has changed is the temperature, as soon as that started rising from 75 they started to decrease in coloration and now started dying. I'm moving them to a different tank temporarily until the basement cools down. The weird part is the tank temperature has never gone this high before in the previous summers for a prolonged period. 

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Maybe this is why some people see a boom in breeding during spring. Time to make it spring year round lolKolobok_cool.gif

In the wild it is thought to be the result of barometric pressure, but I can see more consistent warmer temps causing them to breed more.

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