Raise TDS without raising GH?

[rambamodam]

Hi everyone, my 20g long is just about finished cycling and shrimps have not been added yet. I am using RODI water and  I've added a few scoops of Salty Shrimp GH+ to raise the GH up to 5. My KH is at 1 and my TDS reading is hovering around 90. Here is my problem, the CRS that I am transferring over to the new tank is in a 10g and living in water with a TDS of 150.

 

How do you guys go about raising TDS without messing with the GH and KH? Is it okay to just drip acclimate the shrimp and then add them into the 90 TDS tank?

[Vpier]

http://www.theshrimptank.com/water-conditioners/mosura-tds-up-40gm/

TDS of 150 is near the higher end for me but is fine, 90 is to low. 130 TDS is where I keep my caridina shrimps. You can add a little more SS and raise the GH to 6 and you should be fine.

[Mr. F]

You can increase the amount of organic acids in the water. Leaf littler or driftwood will do this. Probably not as fast as the stuff above^

[Brolly33]

I must be missing something critical in my knowledge. Total Dissolved Solids, as measured by conductivity, includes The solids that make up General Hardness and Karbonate Hardness. I thought the GH and KH parameters had more to do with molting and metabolism of shrimp and were the primary desirable constituents making up TDS targets in shrimp tanks. TDS meter does not care I'd the dissolved solid is Good Stuff like calcium, or Bad Stuff, like Nitrite or Ammonia. I guess I always though of TDS as a "not to exceed" while keeping GH high enough but not too high for good molts.


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[Mr. F]

If you'll notice your TDS is not usually equal to your GH + KH in ppm. For instance I keep a tank at 0 dKH and 5 dGH. In ppm that's about 100, but that tank hovers around 160-170. That's because the difference is made up of dissolved organics used by plants, animals, and (more importantly) biofilm for metabolism and biosynthesis. If your water is too clean there may not be enough bioavailable nutrients for these processes to be carried out, thus restricting the flow of energy through the trophic levels, and ultimately reducing survivability rates.

[fernselvis]

I just the Hanna combi tester which measure conductivity TDS ph. I'm still struggling with understanding this who TDS and conductivity anyone could share some light. A German friend of only mine only measure Conductivity and not TDS keeps it around 250 mark. When I did test my tanks the TDS = 1/2 Consuctivity eg conductivity = 250 and TDS 125. That's what the guy at the shop told me and I check its almost there. Would conductivity also be measuring organic waste. Coz the TDS rises as waste and feeding and nutrients are added would that also show up with the conductivity measurement. Like I said confused [emoji51]. I was told and read @ 250us. The parameters are good for bee shrimp.

[Mr. F]

Conductivity and TDS measure the same thing. Technically TDS meters measure conductivity, not actual TDS. This is because the only true way of measuring TDS requires taking a known volume of water and evaporating it, then weighing the remaining residue. TDS meters instead measure the electrical conductivity and convert it to an approximation of TDS. The conversion is 1.56 µS ~= 1 ppm for water, so TDS is approximately 1.5X greater than conductivity. So, 250 µS ~= 160 ppm. Perfect for bees.

[Brolly33]

If you'll notice your TDS is not usually equal to your GH + KH in ppm. For instance I keep a tank at 0 dKH and 5 dGH. In ppm that's about 100, but that tank hovers around 160-170. That's because the difference is made up of dissolved organics used by plants, animals, and (more importantly) biofilm for metabolism and biosynthesis. If your water is too clean there may not be enough bioavailable nutrients for these processes to be carried out, thus restricting the flow of energy through the trophic levels, and ultimately reducing survivability rates.

Thanks @MrF. I thought it was primarily inorganics that drove TDS. I might have to do a little testing with some pure RO and some glasgarten bacterAE. How do you think adding a product like TDS-up would benefit shrimp?


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[Mr. F]

Thanks @MrF. I thought it was primarily inorganics that drove TDS. I might have to do a little testing with some pure RO and some glasgarten bacterAE. How do you think adding a product like TDS-up would benefit shrimp?


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With pure water and remin, you should expect TDS closer to what you would calculate using:

(dGH + dKH)*17.8 ppm per dH = TDS ppm
i.e. (6+0)*17.8 = 106.8 ppm

Testing with Bacter AE would be good only if you could get an approximation of how much to dose between water changes, but my guess is it wouldn't really be what you'd expect because there aren't any metabolic processes going down in new RODI water. It might be a viable experiment in a new tank.

Since TDS-Up is designed by MOSURA I'm guessing it isn't bad and works for shrimp, but it might just be another thing they're trying to get you to spend money on... With that being said, it might be worth a try; I've been pleasantly surprised by MOSURA products before.

[Mr. F]

Thanks @MrF. I thought it was primarily inorganics that drove TDS. I might have to do a little testing with some pure RO and some glasgarten bacterAE. How do you think adding a product like TDS-up would benefit shrimp?

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Side note: TDS, or total dissolved solids, includes your GH and KH as well as inorganic acids and other charged organic particles (amino acids and their derivatives being a few). Inorganics were concerned with are potassium, a little strontium, some iron... (The List goes on...) and this can be supplied with some micro nutrients (I was recommended 0.1-0.3 mL/gal 1-2x per week of seachem flourish and have had awesome results). But the most important are calcium and magnesium, from your GH remineralizer. This is what a GH kit tests, divalent cations like Ca and Mg. the KH kit works a bit differently, but maybe add the flourish is small amounts to see if you see your mark. Carefully of course! GLHF. [emoji1303]

[fernselvis]

Thank you for the above information my tap talk doesn't notify me . Here a question I could use help with posted it before no replies.


I am really confused or would say still haven't figured out how to use these mineralizers to maintain the tank parameters once setup. Would really appreciate some help and guidance. Sorry in case I'm high jacking the thread.

Firstly if I'm confused with TDS and µS (Mikrosiemens).
To what I ve been told and calculated using the Hanna combi test kit my TDS was roughly half my µS measurements and what I've read is that TDS is made up of additives, waste and other stuff dissolved in the water.

A friend in Germany who keep shrimps and most people in Germany ( not being super specific with this) use µS to measure their water instead of TDS and says if gets the water to 250µS for example his GH 4 and KH 1 and usually is ideal for bee shrimps.

To what I understand the mineralizer adjusted the Gh or/ and kh value giving you those parameters, doesn't the waste and other dissolved stuff effect these parameters ?

If I were to set up a new tank it's is straight forward to reach the desired parameter add the recommend gms of powder to x ltrs of water, I would do a bit less coz soil or hard scape could influence the reading.
My confusion arises when my Gh drops to 3 due to water changes then how can I adjusted the balance 1 Gh should I prepare the mix for the total tank volume to be raised by 1 in a bucket and add it to the directly in the tank with the shrimp in it via drip filling and how do I calculate the amount to be added correctly and what effect would it have on my TDS and µS (Mikrosiemens) readings once added.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong and thank you for your help in advance [emoji51]

[Mr. F]

6 hours ago, fernselvis said:

My confusion arises when my Gh drops to 3 due to water changes then how can I adjusted the balance 1 Gh should I prepare the mix for the total tank volume to be raised by 1 in a bucket and add it to the directly in the tank with the shrimp in it via drip filling and how do I calculate the amount to be added correctly and what effect would it have on my TDS and µS (Mikrosiemens) readings once added.

You're gonna wanna raise the GH by using harder water than your target GH so you have to use the sum of the weighted averages of the two water sources.

Let's say you do a 25% (0.25 total water volume) water change when your GH is 3. In order to get it back to 4 you have to add water that has a GH of 7, because 4 = (0.75 x 3) + (0.25 x 7). You can still estimate it using your conversion for µS, assuming you know the relative GH values. 

[Mr. F]

6 hours ago, fernselvis said:

To what I understand the mineralizer adjusted the Gh or/ and kh value giving you those parameters, doesn't the waste and other dissolved stuff effect these parameters ?

Yes, any charged particles will affect the conductivity (µS) because they are allowing more current to be able to pass through the water, but this is why you use a conductivity/TDS meter AND a GH/KH test kit to know the difference between what parts are made up of divalent cations (primarily Ca²⁺ & Mg²⁺) and what is waste. However, with remineralizing RODI, I dont check GH, just estimate it from TDS because there shouldn't be any other charged particles to affect it.

[Vpier]

Here comes a real dumb question, how does one type this symbol "µS" ? I cut and pasted the symbol for my dumb question.

[Aquarium Creation]

1 hour ago, Vpier said:

Here comes a real dumb question, how does one type this symbol "µS" ? I cut and pasted the symbol for my dumb question.

 

Try Alt+230 to get the letter µ.

 

 

[Vpier]

24 minutes ago, Aquarium Creation said:

 

Try Alt+230 to get the letter µ.

 

 

Doesn't work on a mac but thanks for the tip.

[fernselvis]

My smart I do the same google it and copy pasted it [emoji23]


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[Mr. F]

Here comes a real dumb question, how does one type this symbol "µS" ? I cut and pasted the symbol for my dumb question.

ctrl + m

[fernselvis]

And on a phone


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[Mr. F]

And on a phone

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On iPhone you have to enable the Greek keyboard in settings. Go to Settings->General->Keyboard->Keyboards, and pick Greek.. I don't know about android or windows phone, probably similar tho.

[fernselvis]

Thnx I have an iPhone and it works μ


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[Mr. F]

Thnx I have an iPhone and it works μ


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You are welcome. [emoji5]