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AquaticShrimpNoob

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AquaticShrimpNoob last won the day on November 28

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About AquaticShrimpNoob

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    Advanced Member

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  • Interests
    Any rare shrimps
  • Inverts You Keep
    OE Royal Blue Tiger Shrimp,
    Caridina Rubropunctata,
    Caridina Babaulti sp. Zebra Stripped,
    Chocolate Rabbit Snail,
    Nerite Snail,
    Dwarf Crayfish

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  1. AquaticShrimpNoob

    AquaticShrimpNoob's Journal

    Good news. After just three days, all the bottles were already pressurized. My house is sitting around 72F, which is fairly cold. Anyways, I had a douche move. I decided to replace half of the solution from each bottle. I changed my aquarium water. That said, I have a new broth for the solution. I did made new solution using the following: 1.) Half liter of my aquarium water a.) my water contains right/recommended dosage of Seachem Flourish for plant fertilizer. b.) at this point, the concentration in water will not be exact since the plants may have already used some of them. c.) we can speculate that the water has some reasonable trace amount of nitrate in it (my test says zero otherwise). d.) we can speculate that the water has some significant concentration of organic junk for carbon and nitrogen sources from decomposed food and organic matter. 2.) 1 tsp of table sugar I mixed the solution. This time, I added one scoop of Bacter AE to each bottle. This is not really necessary. But to increase the growth rate, I decided to add more bacteria and food in the solution. I combined this solution to my old solution. After five days, the bottles are already pressurized. You can see the solution a bit yellowish/orange color compare to the second picture above. Also, you see in the attachment how much biofilm is in the solution, which is pretty impressive. In addition, you can see that the solution is alive - meaning that there are bacteria inside creating gas(ses). My hypothesis is that this is mixture of carbon dioxide and nitrogen gas. Carbon dioxide were produce when the environment was still closed to aerobe. Nitrogen gas starts to form when the environment depleted of oxygen and the environment gets closed to anaerobe. The video does not show, but the bubbles are forming on the bio bale. I have not observe this much bubbles before. That said, I can conclude that bio bale helps biofilm production. I also changed my feeding process. After reading more papers, I realized that this solution would have lots of by-products that I definitely don't want in my tank like acetate and 2,3-butanediol. These will not decomposed unless a different type/strain of bacteria use them. I did an experiment using my old solution. I took the biofilms under the bottom of the container and transfer it to a different container (cleaned small coke bottle). After the biofilms settled down on the bottom of the container, I carefully removed the solution. I washed out the biofilms using RO water. This took time because the biofilms suspend on the water and need to settle down on the bottom. I removed the solution out. I did this again. After that, the solution must have been either free of these unwanted chemicals or at least diluted them. I fed them to my shrimps. Even with these positive results, I don't believe that I have achieve my goal. I am a bit greedy indeed. I will wait for couple of weeks and see improvement. IMG_2517.mov
  2. AquaticShrimpNoob

    AquaticShrimpNoob's Journal

    Hi Everyone, I would like to share one of the on-going projects that I am working on. I am breeding Bacillus subtilis and Lactobacillus to produce biofilms, which came from Bacter AE. Just to be clear, I have no way of quantifying if these are the bacterias that are in my homemade solution. However, I do have proven that Bacter AE has bacteria in the powder by doing the "milk test" that can be perform to probiotic supplements at home. In addition to that, my solutions inside the soda bottles budged up - pressure releases when open. I will discuss more about these in my later post. For now, I will be just sharing results. Anyways, I got good result as can be seen on the picture above. I have started feeding my shrimps these biofilms for a while now using an aquarium baster and they love these. Despite that, I believe that this has more room for improvement (e.i. I can get more biofilms out of my solution). Notice that not much biofilms have formed despite being aged for weeks. This is due to low ratio of surface area to volume along with bad surface texture. Therefore, I decided to investigate the use of bio bale. Bio bale is simply a bio-media for filtration just like sponges and bio balls. I decided to use this bio-media because of its physical aspects. Anyways, the above picture shows bio bale inside my solution. I am expecting that bio films will start to form on the media in the next few weeks. I am hoping that I will be able to harvest more biofilms with this methodology. That's it for now. Please feel free to comment and/or ask questions. Thanks, AquaticShrimpNoob
  3. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Stopped breeding?

    Hi phreeflow, If you have not done any changes, then this issue must have to do with the season - I read this from some journal article. Assuming that your tank's water temperature does not vary per season, then this should not be an issue because shrimps will not have any indication of the season besides temperature. However, I think that it has to do with some sort of breeding cycle - they stop producing for a while then comeback. I could be wrong. But I will not worry to much. Unless shrimps are dropping out, I will not do any changes. I would just observe and do my normal routine (e.i. feeding, water change, etc).
  4. AquaticShrimpNoob

    AquaticShrimpNoob's Journal

    Hi EverStuff, Sure. I would keep this journal updated. If by any chance you are interested, I can give you some tips on slow dripping process. Send me a PM.
  5. Hi Everyone, During this break, I have the chance to read some papers that may help cycling a tank. Most of you probably know the fundamentals in doing so. But for the new comers in the hobby, this is probably the most daunting part. Arguably, this is probably the most important part. Skip this and you will face big problems - losing your new stocks (e.i. losing money) and wasting time and energy. What is meant by "Cycling Your Tank" and "New Tank Syndrome"? - probably one of the best text sites about cycling a tank that you can find. Sure, there are tons of sites out there about tank cycling. But this text site brings things from layman's level to a degree of scientific level. It gives the reader a bit of scientific info regarding about the process of nitrification. One thing that I quite did not like about this site is that it does not recommend having kH and gH test kits. Well, this might be true for most freshwater fish, but I am no sure about marine life. Also, I do say that these kits are important to have specially in shrimp keeping hobby. But I do see the degree of usefulness of these kits. They are very important at the beginning when you are trying to establish your tank. But after you find the right recipe for water change, these becomes quite useless. At the end, they are very important to have in-case of times you have shrimp deaths or accidents in order for you to quick check if either of the parameter is the cause. Below are some journal papers that I found useful in understanding nitrification cycle. WARNING: there maybe terms that you won't understand and things get easily get complicated. DISCLAIMER: these papers are somewhat guidance in understanding nitrification process. These are not the "WAY" to cycle a tank or the "EXACT" info about nitrification in aquarium tanks. Nitrification The Decomposition of Protein Substances Through The Action of Bacteria Effects of pH and Oxygen and Ammonium Concentrations on the Community Structure of Nitrifying Bacteria from Wastewater Let me know if you have any questions. Also, please feel free to comment if these are somewhat been useful to you. Thanks, AquaticShrimpNoob
  6. AquaticShrimpNoob

    AquaticShrimpNoob's Journal

    Hi Everyone, I decided to right a journal so that I can document (at least) things that I have done and current things that I will be doing to my shrimp tank. This will be kind of my diary entirely about my shrimp tank. Honestly, this is for my own purposes only but feel free to browse, comment and/or ask questions. My dream shrimp at first was blue bolt. However, after I learned the basics of shrimp keeping, my dream crumbled to pieces. So I decided to look for a different shrimp. I still preferred Caridina over Neocaridina. However, most Caridina are being kept in soft water. It was frustrating at the time until I decided to join this group. The first thing that I did was to browse the Marketplace. I got enchanted by OERBT. This was even more exiting because the OERBT are being kept in hard water. Without thinking twice, I immediately contacted @wyzazz. Unfortunately, wyzazz did not have some available at the time. After 7.5 weeks, I finally got them in my tank. The wait was well worthy. Fast forward in time (months), I got another batch from wyzazz to add to my remaining first batch. I really love my OERBT!! I am a very big fan of rare and wild type shrimps. I am very fond of wild Caridinas because most of them do not crossbreed with other Caridinas. That said, I found it to be difficult to find another type of Caridina that thrives in hard water. Well, that was until I found out about Flip Aquatics. In their website, I found Caridina Babaulti sp. Zebra Stripped. Again, I did not have any second thought about ordering them. Unfortunately, they were sold out. I then subscribed to get notification when they are back in-stock. After 5 weeks, I finally got the notification. Well, Flip Aquatics have 30 days quarantine period for all their imports. So I had to wait 30 days. However, I still placed my order. After total of 10 weeks, I finally received my batch. Again, the long wait was well worthy. During the 10 weeks waiting period, I was browsing the net to look for information about these shrimps. I found out that they are not as prolific compare to other dwarf shrimps. For a seller, this is not ideal because it takes lots of time, money and effort to produce a batch to sell. In short, this is negative net income. But for me, this is very ideal. I do not have to face the issue of over population in short period of time. Don't get me wrong. It would be nice to sell home bred shrimps that are bear fruit of my hard work and to get back some of my capital cost. But that is not the reason that I got into this hobby. Anyways, I found some journal papers about them. Long story short, it seems like I found the way to breed them faster than they normally do but still not comparable to regular Caridinas. I was not going to get another shrimp type. After I gave up on Bloody Mary due to financial and personal circumstances, I decided to just focus on the shrimps that I have. As a shrimp keeper especially a beginner, you might understand my situation - I want more type of shrimps but I could not. However, you will never know when the opportunity strikes. Anyways, I got this opportunity to keep Caridina Rubropunctata (e.i. Leopard Tiger Shrimp). At first, I was not going to because of the circumstances that I mentioned. My decision of getting them went down even further after learning that they are being kept in soft water. But having them is like once-in-a-shrimp-keeping-lifetime. I was afraid that I will regret not getting them. So, I did my research. I talked to the breeder A LOT. I asked A LOT of questions. I even went to foreign websites and did A LOT of translations just to get info about this type of Caridina. I found out that they can be kept in hard water PLUS they don't crossbreed like Caridina Babaulti. The later can be assure by the breeder because these are being kept with other Caridina but never crossbred. Anyways, after sorting out A LOT of things, I was able to get a batch. I successfully slowly acclimated them to hard water. Lucky, I was able to use successfully my Chemistry and engineering knowledge and skills into my hobby. The question now is will they be able to thrive (e.i. breed) in hard water. I do observe them every single day since they enter my aquarium. So far, I do not see any problem. They are acting same way as my other shrimps in the tank. They are adapting pretty well. I hope to get more shrimps in the future when given the opportunity. Happy Holidays Everyone!! Sincerely, AquaticShrimpNoob
  7. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Bacter AE: Good or Bad

    Hi Revaria, Thanks for the response. These are valid points as a consumer. I do not see any hint of bashing. An example of bashing is the following: using half a container of Bacter AE and blaming the product for shrimps' death. That is absurd. This is like blaming Bayer for someone's overdose because they took half of the bottle of ibuprofen. This has no sense what so ever. Let me try to address your concerns (address might not be the right word here). 1.) This is true. I have seen people advised to dose as little as possible to their tank. The dose is up in the air indeed and it is up to the user. But if you are aware, most products are like this nowadays - instructions with minimum info. I think that this has to do with the consumers' demand of low cost. Most consumers do not know the value of a dollar. Most of them want low cost but good quality product, which is really impossible. This is a trade off that everyone must be aware. Adding a piece of paper with instructions per bottle could increase the price of Bacter AE exponentially. But of course, GlasGarten has the option to post information into their website. I would put this case into their fault and not to the consumer. 2 & 3.) Again, this is true unless someone with enough time, money and connection can do this experiment in a well established lab for microbes (e.g. UC Davis). I do not know what toxic substances these bacterias remove in the water. I have done my research on this. So far I found that Bacillus subtitles can thrive in anaerobe environment (e.g. they will use nitrate (known poisonous) as a replacement for oxygen and convert them to nitrite (poisonous in large concentration)). But be aware that they can turn nitrite to ammonia as well. As for doubts if Bacter AE has bacteria in it, I have observed that it does have bacteria in it based on my experiments. Again, I do not have any means to quantify my experiments. But visual results is sufficient for me. As far as activation go, I do not know the rate of activation. I did an experiment using Bacter AE, table sugar and 8 oz of soda bottles with control (e.i. just RO water), RO water with few drops of SeaChem Flourish, and water from my tank. The only bottle that did activate (e.i. visual mass growth in the bottle and increased pressure) was the later one. That said, there are other products out there for shrimp food. It is indeed a hassle to use a questionable product and risk losing more. We are not trying to prove which one of us is wrong. We share thoughts and opinions based on our experience. I really like this because we are learning. Everybody has a valid point except if you do something stupid like my example above. As I have mentioned (and you too as well), this product is hit or miss - if it works, you continue using it; if it does not, you go away. I do am curious on this product as well. But running experiments in a product is a very sensitive matter. Well, GlasGarten can sue you for learning and handing out information about their proprietary product. Of course, you can sue them if you prove that all or at least one of their claims is wrong. Cheers, AquaticShrimpNoob
  8. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Bacter AE: Good or Bad

    Hi Everyone, When I have started back in my aquarium hobby few years ago, I started to read about fish/aquarium care. This year as I get into shrimp keeping hobby, I started reading about post/threads/comments regarding about bacterias. I know that biofilm is probably the main food source of shrimps in the wild besides decaying organic matters. What struck me the most is the product bashing of people against bacteria based food for shrimps such as Bacter AE. Just to let it out there, I am not affiliated to the product Bacter AE. I am just a product user. As I read journal papers about the bacterias in Bacter AE (e.i. Bacillus subtitles and lactobacillus), I realized where this consumer issue (e.i. death) is coming from. For this topic, I will focus more on Bacillus subtitles. One instance caused of death that most people talked about is lacked of oxygen. I believe that this is true. Let's talk about some chemistry - Oxygen Solubility in Water (There are other sources for this if you want more accurate and trustworthy info. But I think that this will be sufficient.) Assume that your tank is at constant 70 F. Your tank's oxygen concentration is <10 mg/L according to this graph. According to this Dissolved Oxygen, the required oxygen concentration for bottom feeders (I am assuming shrimps are included here as well) is between 1-6 mg/L. This means that your tank is safe from oxygen starvation. Keep in mind that this oxygen-water solubility is not accounting pH, kH, gH and TDS - which all may affect oxygen-water solubility. Assuming everything is constant (e.i. temperature nearly does not fluctuate, water parameters do not change, and no over feeding) your shrimps and bacterias in your tank will be in harmony and thrive. Adding Bacter AE or other lived-bacteria containing products may destroy this if misuse. Bacillus subtitles is known as obligate aerobe, which means that they require oxygen to grow. In the case of Bacter AE, Bacillus subtitles will activate using oxygen. I have not found any study on this. But my guess is that the Bacillus subtitles will use up oxygen in the tank so fast than oxygen diffusing in water. This means that you have to initiate a means of enhancing mass transfer of oxygen to water by means of water agitation. In addition to oxygen absorption, there may be other factors that control the activation of Bacillus subtitles in water. For one is their food. I believe that oxygen absorption is for activation only, which means that you will only get X-times of live Bacillus subtitles because you only added X-times in your tank - who knows how many do activate. Growth and/or propagation is another issue. Bacillus subtitles has the potential to grow exponentially given that you have proper water conditions (e.g. pH and temperature) and source of carbon and nitrogen through decaying leaves, piece of drift wood, cholla, uneaten food, and nitrate. Therefore, a pinch amount of Bacter AE may be detrimental still for your tanks (some people did experienced this). And yes, the other ingredients included in Bacter AE (e.i. amino acids, polysaccharides, xylanase, glucanase, amylase, protease, and hemicellulase) can be food for the bacterias as well. On the other hand, I have seen people talked about Bacter AE causing death to their shrimps because the bacterias in it infected their shrimps. Assuming that Bacter AE contains Bacillus subtitles and Lactobacillus ONLY, this claim is "nearly" impossible. It is known that both of these species are probiotics and non-pathogenic. However, there is a study that reported Bacillus subtitles causing white spot syndrome to culture tiger shrimp Penaeus monsoon. I used to dose Bacter AE in my tank and never had any problem. In fact, this increased my baby shrimps' survival rate for sure. However, I started getting noticeable amount of rhabdocoela. Therefore, I stopped doing it. Now, I feed my own homemade (my own recipe) probiotic solution to my shrimps. I do not have any means of quantifying anything inside that solution. All I know are the reagents: water from my shrimp tank, table sugar, and Bacter AE. Using some journal papers that I found, I can speculate what by-products I can get in that solution. Thanks, AquaticShrimpNoob
  9. AquaticShrimpNoob

    buffer substrate in canister filter.

    Hi reefer333, This is actually an idea that I have thought about and would have tried if I went the soft water route. I believe that this actually may work. Let me give you some thoughts about this. 1.) I am not sure if they will eventually turn into dust. I believe that cheap buffering soil will do this. Therefore, brand may be a factor to whether the soil will crumble or not. You can have a different canister where your buffering substrate can be house (e.i. canister filter plus canister for soil). Assuming your water pump is located after your canister filter (which means that your water pump is caking water from your canister filter), you can divide the water out flow from the pump. One flow goes direct to your tank while the other goes through your canister for soil. Put a ball valve to the connection through your canister for soil so that you can control the water flow. Slow water flow should minimize, if not, prevent the soil from crumbling due to high water pressure. 2 & 3.) This is basic process control (an engineering topic/course/field/area/etc). I won't go to too much details about this. Let me give you an example. When you put a cold water in a room temperature environment, eventually the water temperature will turn to room temperature. The key here is the word "eventually." In your case, the water will have its pH at the beginning (say you started with RO water. The water will have pH 7). As you run water through your canister for soil, the water pH will decrease as acid dissolve in the water. Then as time goes by the water pH will not change. That will be your new pH. Running water through the buffering soil will not suck all the acid in the soil. The key here is concentration gradient (e.i. the acid molecules will mix with water until to the point where the water cannot absorb acid anymore because it has reach its saturation point. In fact, this system (e.i. continuous system) will actually reach constant pH faster than a batch system (e.i. you put the buffering soil in water with no flow). Now, say you reach constant pH, if that pH is not what you want, you can always change something in your system (e.g. change water, add buffering soil, etc). AquaticShrimpNoob
  10. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Update: Leopard Tiger Acclimation from Soft to Hard Water

    Hi Ron Kalman, Unfortunately, I could not get any pictures during my experiment. I will try to get some pictures of them in my tank (yes, I have finally able to add them in my tank). When I got the shrimps, I also got some soft water. I used some of this water to titrate with my tank's water. I gradually increased my pH (e.i. pH 0.1 everyday) at a very small rate (e.i. 2 to 3 hours everyday). I honestly wanted to titrate the soft water longer (e.i. 10 hours). But my equipment (e.i. cheap air valve) did not allow me to to this. Therefore, I had to adjust my rate. I did the slow acclimation in order to get the shrimps adjust and able to live in my tank's water parameters without getting shock. Remember that my tank's pH is 7.4 while the shrimps' original water pH is 6.5. I wanted to try them in hard water because no one has tried (or at least ever reported) in keeping them in hard water although most sites including foreign sites listed their pH range up to neutral. If I succeed in keeping and breeding them in hard water, I may be the first one here in US. As far as crossbreeding, my source told me that they won't crossbreed. My source is keeping these guys with other caridina. Despite that, my source has not seen any crossbred shrimps. AquaticShrimpNoob
  11. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Unidentified algae/fungi?

    Hi Robertshrimpguy, No problem. It is always a pleasure knowing that I help someone. It is good to hear that everything is working just fine. Most people panic so much in small things that they will do something wrong (e.i. large water change, sudden pH change, etc). In regards to the shrimp death that you have experience, that is normal statistically speaking according to my research and some shrimp keepers. Dying shrimp after adding them to your tank is hit or miss. There are to many factors to consider (e.g. homebred vs. import, transportation, shrimps' stress level, etc). If by any chance you find the answer to this, try posting it here. There will be someone in the future that will benefit from your findings. If you have any other concern or questions, please ask. There are other advanced shrimpers here that you can rely on. I am not an expert in shrimp keeping just yet. But I am willing to help you as time permits and if it is within my knowledge <-- chemical engineer. Enjoy, AquaticShrimpNoob
  12. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Unidentified algae/fungi?

    Hi Robertshrimpguy, Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to your question. However, I may be able to give some light to your concern. First, you have to identify if this is harmful to any of your friends in your tank. This does not mean that you absolutely have to know exactly what it is. Let me give you an example/analogy. If you know a person if a criminal, would you care about his/her name? I sure don't. All I need to know is the fact that he/she is a criminal. Second, this might not be bad. Some people treat some things pest while others don't. A good example is ramshorn snail. BTW, they sure don't look like hydra (harmful) or bryozoa (harmless). Lastly, these might be part of aging a tank. This is kind of like cycling tank - you get zero to ANN once you get it cycling (assuming you don't screw up). You said that you just started this tank a few weeks ago. As long as they are not harming your friends, I believe that you should wait for a bit. Extreme action (e.g. large water change) might stress your friends and cause real and/or more harm.
  13. Hi Everyone, Currently, I am working on acclimating juveniles Caridina Rubropunctata (a.k.a. Leopard Tiger Shrimp) from soft water to hard water. One objective of this project/experiment is to make these tigers thrive in tiger water parameters. Another objective is to prove that tiger shrimps that were bred in soft water can be house in hard water. The shrimps for this experiment were bred and came from TB water parameters (pH 6.5, kH 0, gH 4, and TDS 145) and will be house to tiger water parameters (pH 7.4, kH 3, gH 9, and TDS 220). I did some research and found that they can thrive in tiger water parameters, which will be investigated and proven in this project/experiment. To start this, I did lots of chemistry calculations in order to allow them to slowly acclimate to the new water parameters. Keep in mind that there were some assumptions but they were based on chemical industrial standards. In addition, these are approximations (e.i. these are not absolute). However, these calculations are very important for guidance especially to changing pH. Keep in mind that pH is in logarithmic scale (e.i. H+ = 10^-pH). Many people have successfully acclimate some tigers (e.i. tangerine and OEBT) from soft water to hard water without any problems just within a couple of hours in one day. However, this acclimation for Leopard tiger shrimps has not been done before (or at least never been reported). Therefore, I would like to do this at least using my fundamentals and first principles of chemistry. This will a least give me guidance and sanity check on things that I do rather than blindly doing things. Even with that, unfortunately, I had to adjust my acclimation rate per day due to the restriction in my equipment (e.g. getting a 1 water drop per 34 seconds is near impossible with cheap air valve). Even with that, I believe that the acclimation rate is still within acceptable range (e.i. still slow). Anyways, the shrimps' water parameters today have reached closed to tiger water parameters (pH 6.9-7.0, kH 1-2, gH 7-8, and TDS 201). The shrimps are doing fine (e.g. they are eating normally, no forced molts, and no deaths). My goal is to reach my tiger water parameters in the next 4 days or more. I can conclude that the drip acclimation from soft water to hard water is successful if all the shrimps survive after at least couple of weeks (e.i. the critical time) from the day that I stop my acclimation. This would be at the end of the month. The next challenge (and new experiment) is breeding, which will take months. I hope that people will find this useful. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments, and/or suggestions. Thanks, AquaticShrimpNoob
  14. AquaticShrimpNoob

    Current Projects

    Hi Everyone, I am back. It has been a while since I was here. I got busy with personal things (plus I got feed up with the other forum).. Anyways, I will be working on few projects that I would like to share with everyone here. One project that I am actually currently working is a DIY oxygenator. Most of you already know this and may currently implementing it. The DIY that I am working on is different than the Hydrogen Peroxide decomposition via enzyme (e.g. potato). My catalyst is different (e.i. non-enzymatic pathway), which I just made. In fact, I just tested it and it is working great. Now, I just need to buy 6% Hydrogen Peroxide solution, install my oxygen inlet to my tank and I will be done with this project <-- really close to be done then. My other project is acclimating leopard tiger shrimp from soft water to hard water. My acclimation plan will take around 7 days. I may make some sort of journal about this. For those who own and have experiences with leopard tiger, I would like to get information. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, AquaticShrimpNoob
  15. Hi there, I would like to share my experience in DIY CO2. The best and most efficient way of diffusing CO2 is by using a water filter housing (e.g. https://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-158116-Filter-Housing.asp) and a piece of PVC pipe, which goes inside the housing. This diffuser only works if you have flowing water in-and-out of your aquarium (obviously, you need a pump) and a pressurized CO2 source. The idea behind the design is that constant water flow increase CO2 contact. Imagine you have an infinite surface area between CO2 and water (I'm not going to talk about gas-liquid equilibrium and mass transfer for convenience). The water flows really fast while CO2 gas injects really slow. You won't see any bubbles coming out of the housing, which means perfect diffusion of CO2 in water. If you do, you might have a very fast CO2 flow. Word of advice: CO2 is more soluble (I believe 20x) in water the oxygen. Also, CO2 solubility increases as water temperature decreases. So be careful on running CO2 under cooler temps.
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