Taiwan Bee Mischling

[randy]

** This post is mostly extracted from a post I made in another forum, with information added and re-organized. Thought I'd share with hobbyists in a dedicated shrimp forum too. **

 

Purpose:

This post is to follow through a berried female TB mischling, I intended to document the egg colour changes and the final baby count.

 

Early Stage (not the same shrimp as the one being tracked):
No apparent difference in egg colour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Day X (I guess around 23-25 days in gestation):
You can see some eggs have already changed colour to dark blue / black.







Temporary breeder box setup with AC70 on open tank:


Enough flow with one or two airline tubing for a small breeder box.

 

 

In case you're wondering how the water flows from the HOB to the breeder box, here is how the tubings go into the AC 70.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[randy]

Day X + 1 update:
So the expecting female mischling escaped the previous breeder box three times in the first day, so I move her to her new breeder box ;-) She got madder and madder every time I netted her back to the previous breeder box.

Her new home for the next few days:





Even after being caught 4 or 5 times in the last 48 hours, she is still holding up pretty well:



A close up,


We should see some babies this weekend.

[randy]

X + 3:  Baby time....

Here is a pic of the entire breeder box. Pink/rose circles are the TB babies, blue are the regulars.


Then some individuals (can see find the baby in each?)












Still got plenty to go.

[randy]

Final tally was : 10 TB and 8 Mischling form this batch. And the following clips were taken when the water change forced the female to molt with 2 eggs in the shell......and the eggs hatched while I was watching. That was the first time I used the video feature of the camera, didn't know how to focus, so parts of the videos are out of focus but you get the idea.

 

[randy]

Quick comment about mischling : not all TB mischlings are the same, in general you want to do TB (m) x Mischling (f) for a few generations to increase the TB ratios. The particular one in this picture was about F8 to F9. On average, when growing to 1cm size, the ratio is about 30% TB vs 70% non-TB, and I'm sure they were born with a higher ratio, but TB babies probably have a higher death rate than the mischlings.

 

I imported some F7 mischlings from a breeder I could trust about 2 years ago, since then the TB ratio in these tank has increased significantly. Before that, I've tried different sources and got disappointed by most of them.

[metageologist]

Very cool

[Jayr_Tigley]

Nice

[JamesHe]

Amazing!

[donny banyurang]

I'm shrimp hobbies from indonesia, i have many black and red mischlinge, but their offspring only 20%TB and 70% mischlinge... My mischlinge is F5, i crossed TB and Pure Red Line and Pure Black Line since 2 years ago.

[donny banyurang]

This is my mischlinge

[randy]

Donny your mischlings look nice. My experience is before f3, mischlings produce nearly no tb. Mine are all way past f7. Also, not sure if it's my imagination, the broken coloured ones seem to produce more tb.

That said, I only keep very minimum number of mischlings now as I started to breed Tb with TB x TB. Main reason being I don't need that many TBs, one tank can produce enough for local need. I do price local breed a few bucks more than imported ones.

We used to hear that TB x TB produces 100% TB offspring but that is not true anymore. I think it may have something to do with pinto breeding so the TB we see aren't the "pure" anymore. I have a tank that still produces 100% so I will try to keep that tank going.

[Subtletanks91]

How would pinto interupt the genetics for Tb to produce miachlings?

pinto can be achieved by tbXtib or tbXtiger right?

if so then you can cross out the tub completely and still hold on to the Tb genes. Unless I'm missing something.

also can you give us your build on that breeder box that's pretty cool

[randy]

How would pinto interupt the genetics for Tb to produce miachlings?

pinto can be achieved by tbXtib or tbXtiger right?

if so then you can cross out the tub completely and still hold on to the Tb genes. Unless I'm missing something.

also can you give us your build on that breeder box that's pretty cool

 

Pinto: think this way, you want the kind of colour intensity from a TB but not in reguar Crystal patter (such as S/SS/SSS). So what you need is TB (for colour intensity) and Tiger to break the pattern. So you can do it anyway you want, most people use TiBee (from Taiwan bee) to cross with TB, but that's not the only way to do it. You can cross it any other way as long as you have these ingredients you should get them, just a matter of time.

 

 

I was replying using my phone so I wasn't being clear (hate to type on a phone). In the early days of breeding TBs, it's said that some people get some mischlings out of TB x TB. I have heard that from various sources but that never happened to me. However, this happened to me last year. I think it's because the TB I had in that tank was the byproduct of the mass pinto breeding in Asia. In Asia, people I know still use TB x Pinto mischling to breed more pintos, and the outcome can be pinto, TB genotype mischling, crystal genotype mischling. My guess (purely guessing) is that if you get these TB genotype mischling (ie pinto mischling that looks like TB) to breed, you may get a higher percentage of shrimps that don't look like TB. That's why I'm keeping my TB x TB breeding tank going since they still produce 100% TB, who knows, that might be rare someday.

 

 

For the breeder box. The particular one that was used later in this project was designed by me and made by a professional. You can see this box and his other work on his website.

[evodrgn]

If thats the case people should start selling off the geno-mischlings haha...easy way to get foot in for possible pintos and tb!!!! Hehe

[randy]

If thats the case people should start selling off the geno-mischlings haha...easy way to get foot in for possible pintos and tb!!!! Hehe

 

I had a shipment last week and in which I order some wine red. My source told me they have pinto gene so he charged me less, as that's all he had at moment to fill my order. He told me the colour won't be as nice, and when I got them that's true for about 25% of the shrimps I received, the rest were still pretty good. I gave the fact to the potential buyers and the shrimps were all gone by end of the week.... I didn't think people would like that ;-)

 

I kept a few for myself, I'll try to snap a few pictures tonight.

[Sbarbee54]

Pinto: think this way, you want the kind of colour intensity from a TB but not in reguar Crystal patter (such as S/SS/SSS). So what you need is TB (for colour intensity) and Tiger to break the pattern. So you can do it anyway you want, most people use TiBee (from Taiwan bee) to cross with TB, but that's not the only way to do it. You can cross it any other way as long as you have these ingredients you should get them, just a matter of time.

 

 

I was replying using my phone so I wasn't being clear (hate to type on a phone). In the early days of breeding TBs, it's said that some people get some mischlings out of TB x TB. I have heard that from various sources but that never happened to me. However, this happened to me last year. I think it's because the TB I had in that tank was the byproduct of the mass pinto breeding in Asia. In Asia, people I know still use TB x Pinto mischling to breed more pintos, and the outcome can be pinto, TB genotype mischling, crystal genotype mischling. My guess (purely guessing) is that if you get these TB genotype mischling (ie pinto mischling that looks like TB) to breed, you may get a higher percentage of shrimps that don't look like TB. That's why I'm keeping my TB x TB breeding tank going since they still produce 100% TB, who knows, that might be rare someday.

 

 

For the breeder box. The particular one that was used later in this project was designed by me and made by a professional. You can see this box and his other work on his website.

 

 

 

Funny you were mentioning this.  I just read this in a message from a breeder I talk to often in Taiwan.  The demand for pinto has gone up so much people are muddying the tb gene.   I still think state side, with the current tb stock we have you will get TBxTB all TB.  But I see in the near feature with the shrimp being imported it will change.

 

I charge more than the average import TB price because they are breed USA and in our water out here.  i had a guy try and get me to lower the cost, and I had to tell them no sorry.  These are US shrimp, guarantee to bee good genes and not stressed from import of possible issues from import.

[Soothing Shrimp]

In my opinion, TB bred in the states are worth the extra money.

[evodrgn]

I had a shipment last week and in which I order some wine red. My source told me they have pinto gene so he charged me less, as that's all he had at moment to fill my order. He told me the colour won't be as nice, and when I got them that's true for about 25% of the shrimps I received, the rest were still pretty good. I gave the fact to the potential buyers and the shrimps were all gone by end of the week.... I didn't think people would like that ;-)

I kept a few for myself, I'll try to snap a few pictures tonight.

I think the reason why people here wouldnt mind buying pinto infused tb is because it can help them get pinto (or at least i think lol)

[Sbarbee54]

Yes, but then it will also throw out mischlings so you are dealing with bad odds of getting Pinto and TB.

[randy]

Yes, but then it will also throw out mischlings so you are dealing with bad odds of getting Pinto and TB.

Exactly. And chance of getting mischlings is probably much much higher than pinto.

[Sbarbee54]

Yes, you brought this up as I read through probably 100 pages of peoples reports and dealings with this now.  I have a german friend who sent me some findings on his breeding projects.  He also is a little mad at one of his Taiwan suppliers because they have been sending him "watered down TB" as he said, ones breed to Pinto.  So he has not had some breeding outcomes he was hoping for, as well as customers complain about TB giving mischling offspring.  Which he at first told them could not happen.  Until he confronted his farms he deals with.  They were off loading them as normal tb to him at normal pricing.

[randy]

Yes, you brought this up as I read through probably 100 pages of peoples reports and dealings with this now.  I have a german friend who sent me some findings on his breeding projects.  He also is a little mad at one of his Taiwan suppliers because they have been sending him "watered down TB" as he said, ones breed to Pinto.  So he has not had some breeding outcomes he was hoping for, as well as customers complain about TB giving mischling offspring.  Which he at first told them could not happen.  Until he confronted his farms he deals with.  They were off loading them as normal tb to him at normal pricing.

I don't want that kind of trouble so I make sure I can trust my source, and I inform the buyers what they are getting.

[donny banyurang]

Donny your mischlings look nice. My experience is before f3, mischlings produce nearly no tb. Mine are all way past f7. Also, not sure if it's my imagination, the broken coloured ones seem to produce more tb.

That said, I only keep very minimum number of mischlings now as I started to breed Tb with TB x TB. Main reason being I don't need that many TBs, one tank can produce enough for local need. I do price local breed a few bucks more than imported ones.

We used to hear that TB x TB produces 100% TB offspring but that is not true anymore. I think it may have something to do with pinto breeding so the TB we see aren't the "pure" anymore. I have a tank that still produces 100% so I will try to keep that tank going.

Thanks dude

TB is hybrid shrimp... So TB isn't pure...

If u want get TB x TB = 100% TB, u can breed from great genetic in the adult. My all Adult TB is originaly from Taiwan and Japan, I imported directly from selective breeder in taiwan and japan

[randy]

Thanks dude

TB is hybrid shrimp... So TB isn't pure...

If u want get TB x TB = 100% TB, u can breed from great genetic in the adult. My all Adult TB is originaly from Taiwan and Japan, I imported directly from selective breeder in taiwan and japan

I know a breeder in Japan doing what he calls "pure line" TB. His wholesale price for a BKK is at $100 range.....

[donny banyurang]

Japan price is very expensive... Hahahaaaa

Pure Line is a shrimp with Pure Genetic and different with TB

In this photo is my Pure Red Line from japan and taiwan.