you gotta love fancy red tigers

[jumpsmasher]

hey guys,

I have a picture here but not sure if these are legit. it was named under "fancy red tiger shrimp" tell me what you think? are they or not?

 

So answer this question; if they come from Joe and these are the ones Joe sold them as Red Fancy Tigers, than i won't have any reason to believe they are not Red Fancy Tigers as Joe is probably the first guy to import Fancy Tigers into North America.

 

Do they have tiger strips? no. Are they TiBee's, probably not. Should you buy them if you want Red Fancy Tigers with tiger strips? no.  

[MinusInfinity]

See junpsmasher knows what he's talking about. I understand that there is exists tibees with mostly white bodies. I have some myself. And I'm aware that they are used for Pintos. Or even the possibility of being the mischlings of Pintos. That debate over on Facebook, was utterly going nowhere. The opposite party doesn't provide photos, or even an ounce of knowledge on the debate. They are literally making up poor scenarios and trying to cover up a liar. Literally the seller has someone else speak for her and makes assumptions for her actions. When she doesn't speak up for herself. But yes you are correct, Tibees don't need to have stripes to be hybrids. I've seen them first hand in my tank and also blue steel taitibees. But the key thing to the argument was that, it isn't really possible to get back a perfect crs pattern. There would be some sort of thing like spots on the head, breaks in the patteren ect.

The problem I have with Joe claiming that thse crs looking shrimp are fancy tigers is that he's shown in previous auctions and posts what he's imported.

[jumpsmasher]

That benibachi debate went no where as well Kenji from Benibachi was getting beaten up about his shrimps were not PRL's when in fact they never used that term or came up with it  (importers did) - we now know better and just call them by what the Japanese call them and that is Ree Bee / Black Bee shrimps or specifically Japanese Ree Bee / Black Bee. But there definitely some miscommunication / lost in translation during the debate that make the OP even more pissed off

 

Those two photos i posted were provided to me by Joe of an import he did earlier this year of his fancy tigers. They are certainty ones that regular CRS in that batch of Fancy Tigers.  So if the seller got them some from that batch it is totally possible she got some that looked like regular CRS's.

 

I have not done much work with fancy tigers but I don't think i this impossible to get ones with perfect CRS patterns; I can see a scenario where you can get some from pinto x panda - i mean most of us would brush those off as mischlings but they would still be fancy tigers by their definition. I seen offsprings of the same crossing as Blue Steel that looks like perfectly normal golden bees  - with mixed genes you can get anything really.

 

I think what has happened since that import is Joe has a better idea of what the north american market' expectation is for fancy tigers so he probably only sell ones that look like they have tiger genes mixed in now and culls the CRS looking one.  I have no reason to really believe those are not fancy tigers and I think it is a bit far to call someone a liar without strong evidences (and really the only way to tell in this instance is to do a DNA test)

[Vpier]

 

it is important to note that the term "fancy tigers" is used and was in fact coined by asian breeders / exporters as a "catch-all" term for any tiger / bee shrimp hybrids not just Tibees ; they don't necessarily need have tiger strips to be a fancy tiger or any particular pattern, just as long as they have a mixture of tiger and bee shrimp genes. You also have to remember that Pinto carry tiger genes so any crossing of any type with pintos will technically give you "fancy tigers" as well.  In Europe, they prefer to call them mischlings or Taitibee / tibee / Tangtaitibee etc; In Japan they call them cloud shrimps but that include pintos as well. But in Asian so breeders / importers decided to lump them all under the "fancy tigers" name.  

 

This is a photo of Joe's Red Fancy Tiger colony from an import he did earlier this year:

 

 

And these are his black fancy tigers:

 

 

As you can see there is quite a wide range of patterns; my guess is the above fancy tigers are not purposely bred to look a certain way but are just culls or mischlings from various breeding projects (pinto's / taiwan bee etc;) as there are many crossings that occur in asia to get new patterns or to strengthen current ones.  

 

Of course fancy tigers with tiger strips are probably more desirable than one without so that probably why those ones are up for auction and if you want fancy tigers with tiger strips than you probably don't want those ones : )

 

 

This reminds me of simialr debate many years ago about some imported Benibachi PRL's that produced some all white offsprings.  It basically came down to the importers having one definition of what a PRL is and Benibachi not having any (i.e. PRL term not used in Japan)

One of my first purchases I made was with Joe's and those pics look just like my BKK and RKK mischlings I got from him. So now Im not sure what I really have from Joe's and this could mess up my plans for two of my tanks.

[jumpsmasher]

One of my first purchases I made was with Joe's and those pics look just like my BKK and RKK mischlings I got from him. So now Im not sure what I really have from Joe's and this could mess up my plans for two of my tanks.

 

BKK / RKK mischlings would just look similar to the ones that look like normal CRS / CBS - most of time they just look like low quality CRS / CBS. As long as they have taiwan bee (BKK / RKK) genes, they are BKK / RKK mischlings.

 

With all the crossings that are being done now, genes are getting fairly mixed up; some of the Taiwan bees you see nowadays have pinto genes as you see quite a few taiwan bee offsprings from pinto crossings.  It actually quite hard to find "pure" 1-2 bar BKK / RKK these days; most of the ones I seen are slightly off bars / strips - a sign that been crossed with something else

[Vpier]

BKK / RKK mischlings would just look similar to the ones that look like normal CRS / CBS - most of time they just look like low quality CRS / CBS. As long as they have taiwan bee (BKK / RKK) genes, they are BKK / RKK mischlings.

 

With all the crossings that are being done now, genes are getting fairly mixed up; some of the Taiwan bees you see nowadays have pinto genes as you see quite a few taiwan bee offsprings from pinto crossings.  It actually quite hard to find "pure" 1-2 bar BKK / RKK these days; most of the ones I seen are slightly off bars / strips - a sign that been crossed with something else

thanks

[Blue Crown Aquatic Trade]

Looks like everything is comig along nicely Monty!! Keep it up and you might be the next Monika Pohler!

[monty703]

Ahh if only that were true!  Unfortunately I lost all of my lovelies last fall....not a one left.  I will have to start all over again.

[monty703]

I will add my 2 cents to this discussion for whatever its worth.  I bought fancy tigers from Joe and was very happy with my purchase. The fact is that any crossing of bee x tiger can and does produce a lot of mixed patterns.  I purchased my original fancy red tigers from Dreamer YoYo and if you look at some of the photos I posted you can see there are some that do look like regular CRS. 

 

In my experience (over 7 years of keeping/buying/breeding/selling shrimps) I always ask the Seller first what is the background on the shrimps Im interested in.  If Im in the market for hybrid crosses like Fancy Tigers/Tibees/Taitibees/Pintos/Mischlings I want to know the basics of the cross. I asked YoYo how she got her fancy tigers that I bought and she was upfront and does tell others on her website how she got those nice looking Fancy ones.   Its all up to the Buyer to do the research on what it is that they want to achieve when they buy shrimps on line/from a breeder. 

 

Buyer Beware is the term used in Real Estate...it is the same everywhere in every aspect of purchases.  Know what you are getting for your money, ask about the background and know what you want to achieve when you buy them, if you are buying from someone that has a very good reputation based on reports from Buyers, then you can be assured that what they say they are selling is in fact what you are getting, even though to your eye it might not look like what you expected. 

 

In this business reputation is ALL...without respect a Seller will slowly loss their business over time and as we all know many jump on the bandwagon to make a quick buck here and there, without really caring what people think of them.  In this case I would say Joe's reputation stands for itself.    Others might disagree with me but Ive been around the block more often than you can count the shrimps in your tank in this business, had every good and bad experience you could imagine trying to get shrimps into my Country.   I am one of the 1st people to import them into Ontario and have promoted them at every club meeting, online websites, etc etc.  I am very careful who I do business with and the 1st person to complain if things are

not to my satisfaction. 

 

Ive bought many shrimps on line/auctions/from breeders and been displeased with what I received many times over the years, so know I ask as many questions (joe and jumpsmasher can attest to this) as I can because I want to be sure that I am getting what I want.  The bottom line is if in doubt DON"T buy!  

 

Vpier, if you bought Mischlings you had to know they were hybrids to start with!  Even BKK, WR and Blue Bolts are hybrids!  There is huge discussions on how these came about in the first place and many believe Tiger bloodlines were introduced to create them.  If you purchased Mischlings then you should know you are going to get a mixed bag of shrimps in the first or second generation if you have them in the same tank as BKK/WRs.  If you wanted only BKK etc then why buy Mischlings/Fancy Tiger/tibees?      In reality many of the shrimps on the market today (PRL the exception) are all mixed, so you can't be sure what is in the mix. 

[Vpier]

Vpier, if you bought Mischlings you had to know they were hybrids to start with!  Even BKK, WR and Blue Bolts are hybrids!  There is huge discussions on how these came about in the first place and many believe Tiger bloodlines were introduced to create them.  If you purchased Mischlings then you should know you are going to get a mixed bag of shrimps in the first or second generation if you have them in the same tank as BKK/WRs.  If you wanted only BKK etc then why buy Mischlings/Fancy Tiger/tibees?      In reality many of the shrimps on the market today (PRL the exception) are all mixed, so you can't be sure what is in the mix. 

Not really as I stated it was one of my first purchases and I tried to ask the right questions but how do you know what to ask when you know very little about what you are buying? Im still learning and this "bee" thing can get very confusing. Now I know more so I ask more questions.

 

How do I know what I really want when I dont know what "really" is? You are coming across as though everyone should know this from day one, well I'm sorry but I didnt.

 

When you make a statement like "Vpier, if you bought Mischlings you had to know they were hybrids to start with!" you make me sound like I'm either trying to make Joe look bad or I'm stupid. All I did was was point out from what I have seen and read ,made be confused.  Bee shrimps are very confusing and you cant blame people for being confused.

 

"The bottom line is if in doubt DON"T buy!"  I wasnt in doubt because I didnt know what to be "doubtful" about. So I guess I shoudlnt buy anything untill I'm 100% knowledgeable?

 

I have purchased TT,s from Joe and I'm very happy and in other posts I have mentioned that he's one of the best at packaging and shipping shrimp.

 

Im not the only one unsure of what they received. I didnt start this thread so please dont take this out on just me.

[monty703]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound that way, but when you mentioned you had BKKs I assumed you knew what these shrimps were and therefore also what Mischlings were. Most new shrimpsters start with something a bit easier to keep than Taiwans which can be very finicky to keep alive.  

 

Back to the original question, if you look at the shrimp in my post # 18 you can see it does look very much like a low grade CRS mostly red with transparent sections, but it is an F3 taitibee, so yes they can look like a CRS. 

[Vpier]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound that way, but when you mentioned you had BKKs I assumed you knew what these shrimps were and therefore also what Mischlings were. Most new shrimpsters start with something a bit easier to keep than Taiwans which can be very finicky to keep alive.  

 

Back to the original question, if you look at the shrimp in my post # 18 you can see it does look very much like a low grade CRS mostly red with transparent sections, but it is an F3 taitibee, so yes they can look like a CRS. 

No problems. I thought I knew exactly what I bought but now I realize that what I have purchased are multiple types crossed to make a certain color or pattern. I jumped in with two feet. Been doing fish for almost 40 years and have even bred saltwater fish so water chemistry and quality is easy. I dont want to come across sounding cocky but I dont think shrimping is that hard. What I found was difficult is trying to understand all these types of shrimps that have been created. If you look at something like ball pythons that have hundreds and maybe even a thousand of morphs, they are still ball pythons not bred with another species of snake but shrimps are crossed with different species of shrimp.  It amazes me how fast this hobby is moving in such a short period time.  Bee shrimps have so many variables when it comes to genetics. Bee shrimps in the simplest term are cool looking mutts.

 What is also confusing is the amount of foods and products coming out in a short amount time for a very small niche hobby. I have never seen this in the aquarium hobby and especially for a segment of the hobby that is fairly new when compared to it as a whole. Everyone's foods and products are the best and most seem to be the same but with a different name.

[monty703]

I have tried a lot of these new foods and to be honest my shrimps just don't eat that many of them?  Ive ended up just basically feeding them Mosura Bioplus, earthflakes, leaves of different kinds and the odd algae wafer....they seem to prefer this.  I just tried Lowkeys Secret food and although the new shrimps were going nuts in the shop owner's tanks for this food, when I put it in the tank after I got them all settled/acclimated in they just ignored the food and starting picking over my sponge filters and cholla wood.   So Im not buying anything else for them as they seem to be happy with the biofilm in the tank and the leaves.