Fluval Stratum + CO2 = Good for TBs?

[smitty78]

Hello,  new guy here. I was wondering if I could run a steady but slow flow of CO2 to help keep pH in the right range for keeping taiwan bees. I plan to run it all day, every day. Right now the soil has been cycling for almost 7 weeks and it's pH is steady at 6.7 thanks to the Fluval Statum but I can't get it any lower. Tank is a 15 gallon with double sponge filter and lots of moss. I know that I probably should have went for tiger shrimp instead but I couldn't resist these adorable little bees. I went ahead and purchased a dozen on an impulse buy. I hope I didn't make a mistake. Do you think they will breed in this substrate? Is there a better way to lower pH? Thanks.

[ILikeAsianBooty]

Dunno, but I wouldnt run co2 24/7...also I'd would have went with controlsoil on substrate source, they offer free shipping. I've heard of a range of parameters from 5.2-6.5 for bee. You can try at that high pH. but dunno what would happen. Will have to do more research on the net tbh..

[smitty78]

I would rather not change substrate since this stuff has been through almost 2 months cycling. I will keep that in mind for the future, though. Maybe I could cap this substrate with an inch or so of another substrate? So a low flow of CO2 to reach 10-15 ppm would be bad for bees?

[ILikeAsianBooty]

14 minutes ago, smitty78 said:

I would rather not change substrate since this stuff has been through almost 2 months cycling. I will keep that in mind for the future, though. Maybe I could cap this substrate with an inch or so of another substrate? So a low flow of CO2 to reach 10-15 ppm would be bad for bees?

They don't like co2 buddy. I mean I wouldn't leave it on 24/7 unless u also had a good o2 supply. Regardless don't reccomend doing it. Also if you cap with another soil try sl aqua/control soil. Wouldn't need to cycle it...if u added in ada it would wipe out most things u had in that tank due to the ammonia spike.

[smitty78]

1 hour ago, ILikeAsianBooty said:

They don't like co2 buddy. I mean I wouldn't leave it on 24/7 unless u also had a good o2 supply. Regardless don't reccomend doing it. Also if you cap with another soil try sl aqua/control soil. Wouldn't need to cycle it...if u added in ada it would wipe out most things u had in that tank due to the ammonia spike.

 

Ok, thanks. I was worried about the ammonia leeching, tbh. If it's not an issue with the other soils you recommended, I'll look into those. One other thought I had, since I'm not so far off ideal pH range of bees is the use of peat pellets in a small HOB filter. Would that be a viable way to lower my pH a few tenths of a point?

[ILikeAsianBooty]

Their sensitive apparently..I'd go with a soil that wouldn't leech much tbh. Always better to have a cycle tank than to waste money and learn the hard way. 

[ColForbin]

how much substrate did you add? I have 10gal tanks and they stay around 6.4 with Fluval. I would add a bit more. Or maybe it'll just take time to go lower. I've had good luck with Fluval and they started breeding once I started using shrimp specific remineralizer.

[tomzhaccer]

I'm sure using peat in some form would be a safe way to lower the pH a bit more if you need to. You could also add some Indian Almond Leaves. I'd avoid CO2 as it would surely only complicate things and possibly mess with the stability of your water parameters. Nothing has made shrimp keeping easier for me than investing in an RO/DI unit and re-mineralizer as ColForbin mentioned.

[ColForbin]

a note on using peat moss. I have some in a HOB and part of the mesh back it was in was hanging out the back and started to drip. I caught it before a gallon leaked, but it definitely ruined the drop ceiling in the room below. Didn't have an issue for a few months. Just make sure it's tucked all the way in the HOB.

[smitty78]

5 hours ago, ColForbin said:

how much substrate did you add? I have 10gal tanks and they stay around 6.4 with Fluval. I would add a bit more. Or maybe it'll just take time to go lower. I've had good luck with Fluval and they started breeding once I started using shrimp specific remineralizer.

 

I have only done one large water change since I started this tank and I originally used tap water and a sprinkle of baking soda every now and then to keep KH up to help speed up cycling. Apparently, there was still some carbonates in the water (1-2 dKH). I just did a 90% water change not long ago with r/o water and now it appears to be around the 6.4 range. I'm just using API pH test so it's hard to get any kind of accuracy with these kits. I ordered a pH pen a few days ago, so I'll have a better idea when that arrives.

[smitty78]

2 hours ago, tomzhaccer said:

I'm sure using peat in some form would be a safe way to lower the pH a bit more if you need to. You could also add some Indian Almond Leaves. I'd avoid CO2 as it would surely only complicate things and possibly mess with the stability of your water parameters. Nothing has made shrimp keeping easier for me than investing in an RO/DI unit and re-mineralizer as ColForbin mentioned.

 

Thanks. I was thing about grabbing some almond leaves to use as well. I agree with r/o unit. I wouldn't even attempt to keep TBs without one. I plan to use salty shrimp GH+ to re-mineralize to 4-5 dGH.

[smitty78]

1 hour ago, ColForbin said:

a note on using peat moss. I have some in a HOB and part of the mesh back it was in was hanging out the back and started to drip. I caught it before a gallon leaked, but it definitely ruined the drop ceiling in the room below. Didn't have an issue for a few months. Just make sure it's tucked all the way in the HOB.

 Thanks for the tip. I'll be mindful of that.

[smitty78]

Peat was a bust. I managed to get the pH down to 6.3 for the last few days but went to check my GH and it was at 2 dGH with a TDS of 140. WTF? I had re-mineralized my r/o water with SS GH+ to reach about 150 tds to match the water in the bag the shrimp were shipped in. That put my GH around 6, two days ago. I'm not certain that the use of peat is the sole culprit but I read that peat acts a de-ionizer for magnesium and calcium, much like fluval stratum. If that's the case, how am I supposed to keep my GH between 4-5 for healthy molting, without raising tds past 200 or so? I'm worried that the substrate might continue to adsorb my GH cal/mag over the next few days. I did ditch the peat bag in the HOB. My pH will most likely climb back up to 6.7 because that's where it seems to want to settle. How are people having success with this substrate? I'm confused. I still feel like I can get more consistency using CO2 to target optimal pH range than I can with peat granules. Carbonic acid won't rob my tank of GH either. It's the pH swings and poor aeration that seem to wipe out shrimp, from my understanding.  A steady 15 ppm of CO2 24/7 is what I will do, despite the "taboo". I just need to build up to it sloooowly. That still only solves the issue with my pH. Not sure what to do about GH. Right now, I'm slowly changing out water with re-mineralized water to get GH to around 3-4 dGH. This is a huge pain. Shrimpin' ain't easy. 

[Memphis118]

in my honest opinion, 6.6 to 6.8 is fine for TBs. Worry more about stability and not chasing PH numbers. You will get a fluctuation because of the co2 in the air, aeration in the tank, etc etc. Use RODI water, mix with SS GH+ until you get a GH of 5-6 and you should be fine.

 

I use SL aqua nature soil, and when I was not using ANY air stones, zero aeration (no ripples in the water) I was gettgin 6.2 PH. Once I added two sponge filters for extra water movement and aeration, my PH jumped to 6.5 to 6.7. If anything, my shrimp are doing better now, since it has much more oxygen in the tank, and everything has been much more stable.

 

Feel free to look on my PRL CRS journal page. They look happy to me... and my PH is 6.7 ish

[ILikeAsianBooty]

Well, you could try either adding in another type of buffering substrate that does not leech on top before they get here or trying the bees in 6.7. If their coming tmr/the following day and you cant get your hands on some soil tmr by the latest, I'd suggest just trying them in the 6.7pH As @Memphis118 said, focus on stability. Btw, forgot to ask if your tank was cycled?

[smitty78]

4 hours ago, Memphis118 said:

in my honest opinion, 6.6 to 6.8 is fine for TBs. Worry more about stability and not chasing PH numbers. You will get a fluctuation because of the co2 in the air, aeration in the tank, etc etc. Use RODI water, mix with SS GH+ until you get a GH of 5-6 and you should be fine.

 

I use SL aqua nature soil, and when I was not using ANY air stones, zero aeration (no ripples in the water) I was gettgin 6.2 PH. Once I added two sponge filters for extra water movement and aeration, my PH jumped to 6.5 to 6.7. If anything, my shrimp are doing better now, since it has much more oxygen in the tank, and everything has been much more stable.

 

Feel free to look on my PRL CRS journal page. They look happy to me... and my PH is 6.7 ish

 

Ok, thanks. I'll try not to worry over pH. It's never been a concern for me in my other planted tanks but after reading about how sensitive TBs are, I started to second guess everything. The issue with the GH is the substrate keeps sucking it up. My tds is around 180 ppm right now. I've been using the "drop" spoon to add GH+ to the HOB filter every few hours. My tds goes up about 10 ppm each dose. I still haven't got a GH of 4 yet but I'm working on it. I don't want to shift water parameters too much too soon. I might do a 25% WC tomorrow evening and re-mineralize @ 150 ppm and see where that gets me.

 

I have lots of aeration going on between a small HOB, a double sponge filter and a small in-tank filter with a spray bar that sits above water line and cascades down. Maybe I could lose a filter or two and that will drop the pH where I want it. haha

 

3 hours ago, ILikeAsianBooty said:

Well, you could try either adding in another type of buffering substrate that does not leech on top before they get here or trying the bees in 6.7. If their coming tmr/the following day and you cant get your hands on some soil tmr by the latest, I'd suggest just trying them in the 6.7pH As @Memphis118 said, focus on stability. Btw, forgot to ask if your tank was cycled?

 

Yeah, I will definitely buy better substrate from now on. The shrimp already arrived as of Friday. They seem to be adjusting well. They are constantly grazing and I can still count all 13 of them, so that's good news. I haven't fed them anything yet because they seem content eating off driftwood and filter sponges. This tank is nearly 8 weeks old and it's been cycled a few weeks now.

 

I'll more than likely move these shrimps to another tank with better buffering substrate and just use this tank for neos. It seem this substrate is a better fit for them anyways.

[Memphis118]

I could be wrong... but I never heard of a substrate sucking up GH..... Substrate is suppose to buffer KH down to zero, not GH. I would def. look further into this. 

[smitty78]

Yeah, it's got to be the substrate. It's the only thing in there besides lava rocks with moss attached and some spiderwood. I don't have enough plants to where they would be responsible for such consumption of cal/mag. Not to mention I barely have 20-30 PAR at the substrate level. The mesh bag of peat couldn't have been more than a couple tbsp worth, so I'm ruling that out now. After a little digging around, seems others have had similar experiences with Stratum, just not as extreme as my case. I think they were seeing a drop of 1 or 2 degrees, which isn't terrible but 4 degrees is very concerning. I had a little remineralized water left from where I filled the tank up and decided to check the GH of that. It was right around 6 degrees. 

 

The good news is, it will eventually lose all it's ability to absorb these minerals. How long this will take is what I'm concerned with. I can deal for a week or two but any longer and I'm going to have to make a switch. I can't keep adding salts everyday to counter this effect, not to mention the constant testing. I don't have the time or patience for that. I thought this stuff had a relatively low CEC rating? It's not calcined clay for goodness sake.