HELP! pH drop after using R.O. water for the first time in 30% water change

[JamesHe]

James. what works for you doesnt mean its the only way.

 

I have a large sump with a huge refugium that handles all the waste in my system AND i've run across many others who are changing their water less and less now and have more success then they did doing 10% weekly.

I have 100s of shrimp and 0 nitrates and my other parameters are dead steady all the time.

 

Yes, agree. there are lots of way to do the same thing.

[Sbarbee54]

Get some floaters for the tank or more moss, that will suck up the nitrates.  airate your water and at least let it sit for 24 hours.   But get some floaters for the tank they will suck up any left over nitrates

[miwu]

I'm not one who agrees with the TDS/GH pairing. I can easily get my rack system to have gh6 but it struggles to keep TDS over 100.

so to me testing for TDS when I remineralize is no good to me. like what has been stated on another thread. when you mix your remineralized water you should let it sit for 24hrs so things are fully mixed with the water.

RO RO RO. I havent remineralized my rack system in close to 8 months. and I dont do water changes either. all i do is top offs with 100% RO. my parameters are where i want them so i leave things alone.

I agree with not pairing TDS and GH. You're now trying to adjust them with the same product, the remineralizer. How can you achieve gH 7 with TDS 10 even if you want to? You're adding something that raise both the gH and the TDS.

Switching from tap water to RO is tricky. If you started with RO, you know that everything that is in there except for the water molecules are from the remineralizer. However, if you've had tap water added, there's all sorts of things that are out of your control. You don't know what is contributing to the TDS. Right now I would gradually change to RO. Adjust the RO to whatever parameters that you're aiming for, then change 10% daily or every other day. All parameters will eventually go very close to the desired values. If pH is 8 and you want 7, don't use water that's pH 6 and change 50% of the water. Use water that has pH 7 and keep changing the water until the tank water is close to pH 7.

Aim for gH rather than TDS but still test TDS, and once you're at the point where a 10% water change no longer affects the TDS (this is the point where all parameters are ideal and almost all water is now RO with very little residue from tap), then start aiming for the same TDS value since that's easier to test and is more precise. You know that the same remineralizer that you're using will give you the same gH if you achieve the same TDS.

Regarding water changes, I'll go with 10% changes when adjusting parameters. When doing maintenance, no one can say what's right or wrong, but I'll at least recommend weekly 25% changes for those who have the basic setup.

[Mamashack]

It's 4.30 am and I'm out of bed because one of the dogs won't settle and has kept waking me up for the last couple of hours - wahhhh!

Thanks, miwu. Had been advised that R.O. was the best way to go to keep the nitrate as low as possible and as you say cut out some of the unknown variables. The drop in pH was unintentional, but was a real cause for concern and my fault since I didn't let the water degas. Wasn't trying to adjust any of the other parameters really, but I guess the principle about change is the same.

So I need to start preparing the water to a certain GH now, do 10% W/C daily until the TDS doesn't change with the water change then use that TDS as my new target? So basically I'm using the GH to establish what the TDS should be? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm still half asleep. I promise I will read it again in the morning and definitely before I do any more water changes. Having just done a 30% water change should I wait a while or just start the 10% changes from later today?

I need to decide what GH to aim for. I guess it's been a nebulous 7+ up to now - what would be a good GH to aim for? Mine is 11 dH at present. Is that too high?

[miwu]

It's 4.30 am and I'm out of bed because one of the dogs won't settle and has kept waking me up for the last couple of hours - wahhhh!

Thanks, miwu. Had been advised that R.O. was the best way to go to keep the nitrate as low as possible and as you say cut out some of the unknown variables. The drop in pH was unintentional, but was a real cause for concern and my fault since I didn't let the water degas. Wasn't trying to adjust any of the other parameters really, but I guess the principle about change is the same.

So I need to start preparing the water to a certain GH now, do 10% W/C daily until the TDS doesn't change with the water change then use that TDS as my new target? So basically I'm using the GH to establish what the TDS should be? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm still half asleep. I promise I will read it again in the morning and definitely before I do any more water changes. Having just done a 30% water change should I wait a while or just start the 10% changes from later today?

I need to decide what GH to aim for. I guess it's been a nebulous 7+ up to now - what would be a good GH to aim for? Mine is 11 dH at present. Is that too high?

That is exactly what I meant. Ideally, the established TDS should be the same as the TDS of your prepared RO water. This is when almost all minerals/metals/ions in the tap water have been removed. I wouldn't mind starting the 10% water changes today if the shrimps aren't showing any signs of discomfort. It's also important to keep watching them and be prepared to slow down the process if they're stressed. I'd say gH 7 is a good number but I think it's better to ask soothing about that.

[miwu]

By the way, what substrate are you using? If it's inert or even acidic, you'll end up with pH lower than 7 once you're using all RO and remineralizer unless your remineralizer raises pH. You'll have to find a way to raise the pH (without affecting the gH and TDS) or have the shrimps adapt to whatever pH it ends up being.

[JamesHe]

Looks like you keep neos.

 

so Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ is better.

[Mamashack]

By the way, what substrate are you using? If it's inert or even acidic, you'll end up with pH lower than 7 once you're using all RO and remineralizer unless your remineralizer raises pH. You'll have to find a way to raise the pH (without affecting the gH and TDS) or have the shrimps adapt to whatever pH it ends up being.

The substrate is inert. If I'm doing 10% changes every day will the shrimp be gradually be adapting to the new pH? I'm not confident about using anything to change the pH if I'm honest. 

This is like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't have all the pieces, you try to fit them all together as best you can and then others start appearing. 

I'm trying to judge how much SS to add to get GH of 7 or thereabouts. I know my tank water is GH 11 @ TDS 260 - are the proportions always the same? Is it as simple as saying TDS 260 = 11dH  so 7dH will be about 165 TDS? The reason I ask is the 10% volumes will be quite small (around 2L) 

I'll have to start water changes tomorrow as I have to prepare and degas the replacement water.

 

Looks like you keep neos.

 

so Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ is better.

Yes, they are neocaridina palmata (white pearl). Not getting at you by any means but this is where it all gets a bit confusing and somewhat annoying as different people say different things. I was told by the breeder to get what I have and that it is safe to use with neos by another member on here. I have a limited budget and will have to make do with what I have for now but I will get some as soon as I can afford it.

This shrimp hobby is working out very expensive indeed. I think if I'd realised just how complicated and expensive it was going to be I'd never have started! 

[miwu]

The substrate is inert. If I'm doing 10% changes every day will the shrimp be gradually be adapting to the new pH? I'm not confident about using anything to change the pH if I'm honest.

This is like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't have all the pieces, you try to fit them all together as best you can and then others start appearing.

I'm trying to judge how much SS to add to get GH of 7 or thereabouts. I know my tank water is GH 11 @ TDS 260 - are the proportions always the same? Is it as simple as saying TDS 260 = 11dH so 7dH will be about 165 TDS? The reason I ask is the 10% volumes will be quite small (around 2L)

I'll have to start water changes tomorrow as I have to prepare and degas the replacement water.

Yes, they are neocaridina palmata (white pearl). Not getting at you by any means but this is where it all gets a bit confusing and somewhat annoying as different people say different things. I was told by the breeder to get what I have and that it is safe to use with neos by another member on here. I have a limited budget and will have to make do with what I have for now but I will get some as soon as I can afford it.

This shrimp hobby is working out very expensive indeed. I think if I'd realised just how complicated and expensive it was going to be I'd never have started!

It's always frustrating at first but you'll get everything right eventually. Hopefully that'll happen soon. To answer your questions, yes, I think they will adapt to the new pH with daily 10% water changes. It is probably not the best pH for them but I have no experience with them so I cannot really comment on that. I do agree that the gh/kh might be a better choice though.

Yes, the ratio of gH and TDS should remain the same IF you use the same remineralizer and if the water is pure/RO. In your current case, this is not true because of the tap water that is in your tank. Since you're doing just 2L of water change per day, I'd prepare a week's worth and let it degas for a day, then you'll have enough degassed water for an entire week. Remember that this is a slow process and I think you can speed it up say after the first week or two by upping it to 20% water changes. If you're doing 10% water changes, it'll take you a month to remove 95% of the tap water, which is about where you'd start just doing weekly 25% changes.

[Mamashack]

That's a good idea miwu and I'll do that after this batch I'd already started a 5L container which is 2 days worth and got the GH to 7 dH which equates to 140 TDS. It's sitting on my worktop with a tea-towel over it to prevent dust from settling on the surface. Hopefully the CO2 will pass through it.

I'm thinking 140 is drastically different to the 250 I've had them in since I got them. I'm really wary of making such a drastic change.

The tank pH is still quite low, tho there is no sign of any discomfort from the occupants. I've put the extra filter in there with no filter medium just aerating the tank to blow off some of the CO2. I'll check the pH again when I get home from work tonight and if it's rising a bit, perhaps transfer it to the 5L container and see if that will help degas that quicker overnight.

Hopefully by this evening others will have given their opinion of optimum GH. At least I've got it on the lowest GH for now and can always add to it if necessary I guess.

[Mamashack]

Have ordered some GH/KH+ just now so I'll recheck the GH and TDS readings using the new stuff. 

[Soothing Shrimp]

I should have got here sooner.  My specialty is neos.  It's about all I have worked with for the last several years, and have lots of tanks.  (I forget at this exact moment how many.)

 

SS gh will be just fine for your neos.  SS gh/kh will be fine, too.  Both will work.  I've done both and haven't seen any difference.

 

As far as TDS, I've seen people keep neos in 1000+ TDS and they bred fine.  Neos are the TANKS of the shrimp world.  Meaning they can take a lot and still survive.  I've personally kept them in anything from 150-600.  I've experimented a lot to find the sweet spot for me and my water, location, etc.  This year I've tried 150, however I think I've gotten better breeding at 300-400, so I'm going back to that again by the end of the year.

 

gh for me is best between 6- 12.  Below 6 and they tend to have problems molting for me and die off.

 

As far as changing TDS, I don't have any problem raising it instantly.  However when dropping TDS, I have a rule that I don't drop any more than 100 TDS in a wc for neos.  50 for more sensitive shrimp.  By reducing the TDS, it sucks the minerals from the shrimp bodies which can be hard for them until they adjust.

 

If using RO + SS, I find the TDS of the gh I like (1 gh very roughly equals 20 TDS) and just mix to that TDS from then on.

 

Hope this helps some?

[JamesHe]

 

Yes, they are neocaridina palmata (white pearl). Not getting at you by any means but this is where it all gets a bit confusing and somewhat annoying as different people say different things. I was told by the breeder to get what I have and that it is safe to use with neos by another member on here. I have a limited budget and will have to make do with what I have for now but I will get some as soon as I can afford it.

This shrimp hobby is working out very expensive indeed. I think if I'd realised just how complicated and expensive it was going to be I'd never have started!  

 

Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp GH+ is design for Bee shrimp, (aka Crystal). 

Salty Shrimp Shrimp Mineral GH/KH+ is design for neos. 

 

the difference is GH vs KH ratio.

 

Bee GH+:1:0.06 ( each degree of GH, will also provide 0.06 degree of KH)

Mineral GH/KH+: 1:0.5 ( each degree of GH, will also provide 0.5 degree of KH)

 

Bee shrimp doesn't require high KH, 0-1 is fine with it. so pH can stable below 7.

Mineral GH/KH+ has higher KH number, which needed by neos, and will help pH stable above 7.

 

GH doesn't affect pH, but KH does. KH is the buffer capability of water which would affect pH. it prevents pH drop.

 

hope this clear things up.

 

you still can use Bee GH+, but you need provide needed KH by other way, like adding crushed coral to the filter in small amount.

[Greenteam]

Man I feel like I'm lazy compared to you guys. I never test anything other then TDS for WC and GH once a month. I have no clue what my nitrate levels are, but I also keep my tanks with layer of floaters that covers the whole top. 

 

I also do the 1 week were I just top off with 100% RO then 2nd week I do a 10% WC with remineralized RO water with SS Gh+ it works for me and I think that's the key to this whole process.

 

Find what works for you

[Mamashack]

I should have got here sooner.  My specialty is neos.  It's about all I have worked with for the last several years, and have lots of tanks.  (I forget at this exact moment how many.)

 

SS gh will be just fine for your neos.  SS gh/kh will be fine, too.  Both will work.  I've done both and haven't seen any difference.

 

As far as TDS, I've seen people keep neos in 1000+ TDS and they bred fine.  Neos are the TANKS of the shrimp world.  Meaning they can take a lot and still survive.  I've personally kept them in anything from 150-600.  I've experimented a lot to find the sweet spot for me and my water, location, etc.  This year I've tried 150, however I think I've gotten better breeding at 300-400, so I'm going back to that again by the end of the year.

 

gh for me is best between 6- 12.  Below 6 and they tend to have problems molting for me and die off.

 

As far as changing TDS, I don't have any problem raising it instantly.  However when dropping TDS, I have a rule that I don't drop any more than 100 TDS in a wc for neos.  50 for more sensitive shrimp.  By reducing the TDS, it sucks the minerals from the shrimp bodies which can be hard for them until they adjust.

 

If using RO + SS, I find the TDS of the gh I like (1 gh very roughly equals 20 TDS) and just mix to that TDS from then on.

 

Hope this helps some?

Thanks Soothing! 

Had kind of figured I'd go slowly and start off reducing TDS to 200 ppm which came in at 9 dH using R.O water as the base, but I may well stick with what they are used to if it won't do them any harm i.e. 250 and 11dH

I now have to figure out how to keep the pH up without having to buy something else. Think I might try half tap water half R.O. water. Generally the tap water is pH 7.8 and the R.O. water looks to be 6.0 but it could be lower since that's the lowest one on the API card. Is there a calculator for this kind of thing? I know pH is logarithmic, but beyond that I haven't a clue how to make that work in practice.

Maybe I'll just have a play around with proportions of tap and R.O and see what gets it back above 7. 

Have been aerating the tank since this morning and it doesn't appear to have made any difference to the pH if anything it has gone down to about 6.4 which is feeling scarily low to me.

Am off to play with the water!

[Mamashack]

Had a play with the water and, altho it didn't stand for ages as it should, I think the best combination is going to be ⅔ tap water to ⅓ R.O water which gave me a pH of 7.2 and a nitrate level of about 2-3 ppm.

Full strength tap water is 7.8 pH and nitrate 5 ppm.

Think that's what I'll do in future. I'll do the 10% daily that miwu suggested until it gets back to normal as I've already messed with the parameters <doh!>

Amazingly there have been no further casualties, amazing because I always thought that the pH was critical and it appears not to be as catastrophic as I first thought it was going to be.

[JamesHe]

Had a play with the water and, altho it didn't stand for ages as it should, I think the best combination is going to be ⅔ tap water to ⅓ R.O water which gave me a pH of 7.2 and a nitrate level of about 2-3 ppm.

Full strength tap water is 7.8 pH and nitrate 5 ppm.

Think that's what I'll do in future. I'll do the 10% daily that miwu suggested until it gets back to normal as I've already messed with the parameters <doh!>

Amazingly there have been no further casualties, amazing because I always thought that the pH was critical and it appears not to be as catastrophic as I first thought it was going to be.

pH is important for Neos.

 

they will thrive if pH is above 7.

they can survive between 6-7.

they will die off if pH stay below 6.

 

This is my own experience.

[Mamashack]

pH is important for Neos.

 

they will thrive if pH is above 7.

they can survive between 6-7.

they will die off if pH stay below 6.

 

This is my own experience.

Thanks for that, JA - this recent episode of mine would appear to follow that assessment.

I guess I panicked and thought I'd fried my shrimp in acid! 

I'm still amazed there weren't any shrimp losses but very relieved too.

All this came about thro a desire to have low nitrates - the shrimp are going to have to live with 10 to 20 ppm nitrate. Have decided to leave well alone and stick with tap water. I'm done messing with water parameters! 

[Mamashack]

Seems I spoke too soon as I've come home this evening to 2 more dead shrimp. They were the biggest 2 of the remaining ones and their usually dark heads had turned white this morning even tho they were still walking about at that point. However the remaining smaller ones seem to be ok and feasting on the snowflake food which seems to be very popular.

The pH this morning was 7.0 and this evening it's 7.2 so the aeration certainly seems to be working.

NO3 was 10 ppm this morning and ammonia (API) was yellow with the slightest greenish tint - nowhere near the 0.25 ppm colour.

Nitrites this evening are 0 and TDS 263.

The temperature in the tank has risen again this evening to 24.7C/76F (our weather has warmed up again) so once again I've got 2 fans on the go to try to reduce it. Hoping the aeration in place to blow off CO2 will replace any O2 lost by the heat.

I refuse to get despondent tho. Am hoping that they too were older shrimp that couldn't tolerate me messing about with the water parameters.

[chibikaie]

Do you have any idea where the ammonia is coming from?

Even though it's very low level, added to the recent stresses it might have been a contributing factor. It would probably be a good idea to continue those small water changes to keep it from creeping up.

[Mamashack]

Thanks, chibikaie, I haven't got a clue where it's coming from if I'm honest.

I'll keep doing the water changes.

[chibikaie]

That's always frustrating. Keep trying!

[Mamashack]

Happy to report no more deaths overnight. pH is in the 7 region again today and I've done a 10% water change - will do them daily until things improve. Used tap water and topped up TDS with Salty Shrimp.

Have been having a think and only thing I could think of that could possibly be contributing ammonia is the cholla logs. They've only been in there for about a month but they are the only thing I can think of. I have removed them to see if it makes any difference.

Tap water is a resounding 0 ammonia and tank water a definite 0.25 ppm so it's not the API test showing a false +ve as I know they are prone to doing - that's why I tested tap and tank ammonia at the same time.

[miwu]

What's the substrate you're using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mamashack]

It's an inert one from a store here called Pets At Home 

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/searchterm?searchTerm=black+gravel+2kg