stonedaquarium Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 hi there, didnt want to hijack a thread and ask this question but i have been snooping around and chanced upon citric acid being used as a form of ph down agent... has anyone tried this and how long would this lower the ph and keep it stable over time? would it also affect the GH of the tank? I know for a fact that some acid regulators would affect KH and consequently GH... i would really like to try to lower my ph and keep it at a stable level... does anyone know if citric acid would work or could recommend any other option aside from CO2? and almond leaves? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Don't know about citric acid, but some old timers used vinegar to lower ph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Just found some old information for ya: Add 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of tank water to initially reduce pH by about 0.3 units. After it enters the tank it is decomposed to CO2 by bacteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wombat Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Be super careful using chemicals (even benign ones like vinegar) as you can easily cause the pH to swing a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OblongShrimp Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I used to use hydrochloric acid (muric acid). You can buy it cheap at any pool store since it is also known as pool acid. It is strong though so you need to be very careful with it. I find its easier to just use RO water and a buffering substrate though. stonedaquarium, countryboy12484 and Soothing Shrimp 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I used to use hydrochloric acid (muric acid). You can buy it cheap at any pool store since it is also known as pool acid. It is strong though so you need to be very careful with it. I find its easier to just use RO water and a buffering substrate though. oblong, i might consider that approach next time... from where im at the substrates that are currently available are ADA, Control Soil, Ista Shrimp Soil (6.5) and ista shrimp soil (5.5) and Up aqua Shrimp soil... we used to have GEX but im not sure how good are those substrates in buffering the ph of the water... and yes live origin plant and shrimp substrate ( has anyone heard of this) ??? with regards to hydrochloric acid... i have access to that... but would it keep the PH stable though? coz i have tried using a strong acid (e.g. citric ) it really lowers the ph, but after 3 days the ph goes back up to 7.8.... which creates a bit of a ph swing even for hardy neos... i used to use nutrafin ph down which was great... and didnt affect the GH much... but currently based in the philippines, some of those stuff you get from north america are pretty hard to get... hehehehe... when you used muric acid in the past, how did you use it and how long did it keep the ph stable... ? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 hi there, didnt want to hijack a thread and ask this question but i have been snooping around and chanced upon citric acid being used as a form of ph down agent... has anyone tried this and how long would this lower the ph and keep it stable over time? would it also affect the GH of the tank? I know for a fact that some acid regulators would affect KH and consequently GH... i would really like to try to lower my ph and keep it at a stable level... does anyone know if citric acid would work or could recommend any other option aside from CO2? and almond leaves? Thanks Don't try Citric Acid or Acetic Acid (White Vinegar). They will have problem breaking down properly. If you want quick fix, as just Ooblong mentioned, HCL is a good candidate. The other good acid to use will be Sulfuric Acid. However, these two acid are very dangerous. Therefore, it is advisable to obtain those diluted version such as 0.1M or 0.01M concentration. Using these acid will have three problems: For a day or two, the pH will plunge very badly. It will only recover after they reacts with the ions in your water and enters full equilibrium. These acid will have to be added slowly over a week or weeks to neutralise all the alkaline compound in your tank. If something is leeching alkaline substances in your tank, your pH will continue to go up. For problem 2, are you able to advise what is your alkalinity hardness (KH) of your tank water and tap water? For problem 3, are you able to advise what kind of rocks and filter media are you using? In order to lower the pH safely and continuously, there is another method. Get Peat filter media or acidic clay filter media and put them in the filter. This method will lower the pH slightly but not drastically. Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Don't try Citric Acid or Acetic Acid (White Vinegar). They will have problem breaking down properly. If you want quick fix, as just Ooblong mentioned, HCL is a good candidate. The other good acid to use will be Sulfuric Acid. However, these two acid are very dangerous. Therefore, it is advisable to obtain those diluted version such as 0.1M or 0.01M concentration. Using these acid will have three problems: For a day or two, the pH will plunge very badly. It will only recover after they reacts with the ions in your water and enters full equilibrium. These acid will have to be added slowly over a week or weeks to neutralise all the alkaline compound in your tank. If something is leeching alkaline substances in your tank, your pH will continue to go up. For problem 2, are you able to advise what is your alkalinity hardness (KH) of your tank water and tap water? For problem 3, are you able to advise what kind of rocks and filter media are you using? In order to lower the pH safely and continuously, there is another method. Get Peat filter media or acidic clay filter media and put them in the filter. This method will lower the pH slightly but not drastically. hyoushoku, thanks for your reply... how do you get to make a dilution of hydrocloric acid... i could get some supply for that... just might need to find a way how to make the dilution... for problem 2 the Kh of my tap is 5 and my tanks is about 4... GH ranges from 5 to 7.... for problem 3... i only use sponge filters and no rocks in my tank... must mosses and some almond leaves ... i tried dosing fulvic acid to help lower (Mosura rich water) seems to work a little bit but not enough to bring it to the ideal range of 6.8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 hyoushoku, thanks for your reply... how do you get to make a dilution of hydrocloric acid... i could get some supply for that... just might need to find a way how to make the dilution... for problem 2 the Kh of my tap is 5 and my tanks is about 4... GH ranges from 5 to 7.... for problem 3... i only use sponge filters and no rocks in my tank... must mosses and some almond leaves ... i tried dosing fulvic acid to help lower (Mosura rich water) seems to work a little bit but not enough to bring it to the ideal range of 6.8 Hi, It is better you buy already diluted HCL, instead of diluting yourself. It is dangerous to handle and dangerous to store at home, especially you have kid and dog/cat. If you are getting the HCL from hardware store or laboratory store, they do sell diluted version. If you are still keen on diluting yourself, the diluting process is pretty straight forward. If you are achieving 0.1M from 1M acid, you just need to use 9 part pure water and 1 part HCL. Depending on the concentration you are getting and perform the calculation accordingly. "for problem 2 the Kh of my tap is 5 and my tanks is about 4... GH ranges from 5 to 7...." <--- What substrate are you using? By the way, you never mention anything about what shrimps you are keeping in the tank. You profile is stating mostly Neocaridina. Neocaridina lives better in mild alkaline water. If you are only keeping Neocaridina, then don't bother to change the water parameters or you may end up killing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Hi, It is better you buy already diluted HCL, instead of diluting yourself. It is dangerous to handle and dangerous to store at home, especially you have kid and dog/cat. If you are getting the HCL from hardware store or laboratory store, they do sell diluted version. If you are still keen on diluting yourself, the diluting process is pretty straight forward. If you are achieving 0.1M from 1M acid, you just need to use 9 part pure water and 1 part HCL. Depending on the concentration you are getting and perform the calculation accordingly. "for problem 2 the Kh of my tap is 5 and my tanks is about 4... GH ranges from 5 to 7...." <--- What substrate are you using? By the way, you never mention anything about what shrimps you are keeping in the tank. You profile is stating mostly Neocaridina. Neocaridina lives better in mild alkaline water. If you are only keeping Neocaridina, then don't bother to change the water parameters or you may end up killing them. Im using Ista ph 6.5 planted substrate... so far in my 3 tanks it doesnt seem to be able to buffer the water... you say that neos like mild alkaline water? my ph is 7.8 to 8.0 is that mildly alkaline enough for them? they dont seem to be breeding as much though, as compared to when i had them at ph 6.8...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 pH below 8 is consider mild alkaline. I doubt breeding is caused by the pH. Do you have a high definition photo of your shrimps? If you wanted to lower your pH consistently, I will suggest you to use peat filter media. Are you from US? If yes, just search for "Sera Super Peat" and "Eheim TORFpellets" and there are tons of online store selling them. With your current pH, a litre of them in 50L water should lower the pH by approximate 0.2 to 0.8. The good thing about alkaline water buffer by carbonate (which is your case), once the acid neutralised it, the alkaline component will air out as CO2. If you have an air pump running to air out excess CO2 formed, your pH will slowly goes down continuously over time; provided you don't add any more alkaline water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 7ph is considered neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 7ph is considered neutral. LOL!!! That's what I meant. 7.x to 8. Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryboy12484 Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 I would just get a bag of ada and be done with it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 I would just get a bag of ada and be done with it lol Eh.... At that pH, a lot of the ammonium in ADA AS will be released as free ammonia and, kills everything in the tank. Not a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Thanks for your replies guys. I maybe contemplating getting some diy co2 reactors using baking soda and citric acid and just bleed co2 with it.. since i got a sponge filter i guess it would bleed out the excess co2 and provide some oxygen to prevent them choking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 15, 2014 Report Share Posted November 15, 2014 Good luck to you. However, I still think the breeding issue got nothing to do with pH. If you can show me clear close up photos of your shrimp, I may able to diagnose the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Good luck to you. However, I still think the breeding issue got nothing to do with pH. If you can show me clear close up photos of your shrimp, I may able to diagnose the problem. Good luck to you. However, I still think the breeding issue got nothing to do with pH. If you can show me clear close up photos of your shrimp, I may able to diagnose the problem. will try to post some pics of my shrimp tanks hope you guys can help share some insights... thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 will try to post some pics of my shrimp tanks hope you guys can help share some insights... thanks Please take close-up picture so that we could see the texture of the shell and the shapes of the limbs and antenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 thanks will try to do so... i dunno if its just a coincidence or too early to jump for joy but i just tried to run some co2 into the tank and just counter balance it with the aeration coming from the sponge filter.... so far the ph of the tank seems to be constant at 6.8 to 7 based on the API test kit... so far so good... im just keeping my fingers crossed.... but what puzzles me is that its only my fire red colony that seems to be a bit finicky my rilis and blue pearls are all low maintenance and i havent had any casualties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Different breeders have bred shrimp in different conditions for generations. You may have done everything perfectly as far as drip acclimation, etc- and still have shrimp that have been selectively bred by nature for different params. How long have you had them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 About 3 weeks now. As im puzzled as its only my fire reds that are finicky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If it is 3 weeks, your shrimps are still in acclimation stage. It is normal for some to die. Fire Red shrimps are hardy. They should be able to survive pH 5.5 to 8 with no problem. stonedaquarium 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedaquarium Posted November 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 what Gh should would you recommend? I keep them at Gh of 4 to 5... and do you also measure TDS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimpy Daddy Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If your water is mild alkaline, 4 to 5dGH is fine. Ignore TDS. It does not tell you exactly the water condition, except how much conductive substances are dissolved in the water. It is a pretty meaningless value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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