Lyana Posted April 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 He looks good, still no fungus I can see and moving around. Should I add him to the main tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 My shrimp has the same issue he's sitting alone in the cull tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Well after 17 days in the hole (dark place) my blue dream that was infected with "The Green Scourge" (Ellobiopsidae) emerged looking none the worse for wear and no visual sign of the infection. Close photographic examination are not so promising however. From the amount of feces in the container it was obvious the shrimp and the snails (that I didn't know were included) had been getting something to eat from the Java Moss. The Java Moss was still green and looking pretty good. I greatly regret not taking before photos - but I didn't think that this shrimp would live a week, let alone two...let alone have no sign of the green beast on him. I did take pictures today - and he is not done being tested. I really figured taking pictures of the infected shrimp would be a colossal waste of time. Next test is two weeks of light - bright light. I don't believe he's is cured - but I do believe the protozoan has been compromised and would be more susceptible to chemical treatment or even molting at this juncture. I expect to see the protozoan show up within a few days and if that's the case it's back in the hole for this guy and then we'll try some of the traditional treatments for protozoans. Are these arrows pointing at pleopods or protozoan? Are these arrows pointing at pleopods or protozoan? Here you get a shot from the posterior of the shrimp to the underside and the pleopods are clearly visible. Arrows pointing to what may be remaining protozoan structures - this was the most "damning" picture I got out of 75 shots. Reflection of the shy shrimp shows there is clearly no green under the tail. Reflection of the shy shrimp shows there is clearly no green under the tail. He looks just fine to the naked eye -- but time will tell. ryanryan88 and Soothing Shrimp 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 I will put my shrimp in (the hole) I will report my findings. Soothing Shrimp and Desert Shrimp Depot 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35ppt Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 He looks good, still no fungus I can see and moving around. Should I add him to the main tank? I would say wait as long as you can. Problem is, not knowing even what the organism is (life cycle, etc), it's all a guess. At this point I would perhaps look at immune boosting products. Isn't that what beta glucan is supposed to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Keiris -- I’m really excited to have somebody replicate this exercise. Be sure you allow a tiny crack of light - say about a finger diameter or less so that the shrimp can see to live. Also be sure there are natural things to eat - mine was able to glean enough from the tuft of java moss and aspen cones (about half dozen on on stem) which came with him so they had the flora/fauna from the aquarium. Apparently there were also three or four tiny snails in the java moss that kept him company - didn't notice them at first - but to be honest while I felt confident in my reasoning, I didn't feel confident in the outcome. I would really like to have importers send me some infected shrimp so I can try this on more subjects - but apparently they don't consider this a significant problem as the two I've emailed have ignored my requests and not even replied. Perhaps they figure that sending infected shrimp would verify that they receive them - but we already know they receive them. I have enough shrimp and not enough room or money so I'm not about to order Neos by the dozen in search of the occasional infected shrimp. Yesterday I put the silly magnifying visor on and stuck my nose right upto the container and watched this blue for well over 90 minutes total. I had ample opportunity to see him "fluff" his pleopods and I could not see any structures attached. The pleopods are transparent around the margin, but I think this is actually shrimp. In any event my subject is now under light 24/7. It's a DIY light that has two rows of 6500 LEDS and a row of blue and a row of red. The light is within six inches above the shrimp so he's getting lots of light. If there is a photosynthetic organism attached to him this should reveal it within a few days - but I'll allow two weeks before I draw any conclusions. Soothing Shrimp, Lyana, Shrimple minded and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Here we go... he will not cooperate so i can take a pic of the fungus..at first we thought he was just a berries shrimp as time went on it became more and more evident that she was a he.. So in the hole he goes for 2 weeks... Desert Shrimp Depot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Looks good. Should be plenty to eat with the AIL and the java moss. Fingers crossed. I checked briefly every couple days to see if mine was alive But that's all I wanted him really dark, but not black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Four days of light 24/7 and still no sign of the return of the green scourge. This surprises me. I expected that with dark therapy I could deal a blow to the scourge that would allow a less toxic treatment finish it off. I really didn't expect that darkness alone would do the trick... or was it darkness alone..... However it occurred to me that there is a bit more than just the dark at work here. There is also the water chemistry and also what I added into his little tank while he was in "the hole'. I used alder cones and Java Moss. Keiris is using AIL and java moss. Those are variables that we need to account for - or at least be aware of. My water pH was 6.6 and the GH is 5 and KH<1. Might this be a factor in the outcome? The problem with the way we are doing this is that it's pseudo science. If dark works for me but not somebody else - then we need to figure out why -- what other factors might have been synergistic with the dark.....or perhaps the dark had nothing to do with it - but rather it was the additions or water chemistry. What I'm alluding to is just because I hypothesize that darkness will weaken the scourge - does not mean it does - and just because the shrimp has an absence of infection after dark therapy does not mean that it was the darkness that was responsible. OR - just because darkness doesn't work in another case does not mean that darkness is not A factor - it may be one of several things that are overlooked which made a difference. Heck -- I never even touch on temperature - which is likely a factor. For that matter - not seeing a return of the scourge after 4 days is not indicative of a cure - but it is sufficient reason for optimism. I'm really disappointed that some of the importers have not stepped forward to provide infected shrimp. One of the importers/breeders that I respected the most won't even reply to my inquiries - and he was the one that sold me the blues with the scourge. I never even asked for a refund or was accusatory .. I just said if he encounters infected animals in shipments I'd like to work out some way to acquire them and offered to share everything I learned with him. On the other hand another importer who is well known and researching a rather aggressive chemical treatment regime did reply and said that later in May we may work something out. ...... patience.... I'm short on patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metageologist Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Glad to hear it worked. As you said there are a lot of variables in your experiment that need to be accounted for. Not to mention the need for duplication of your results. It nice to see one importer is willing to work with you. The one who won't well isn't he the same one who denies his shrimp are infected bit sells alot of infected shrimp. have a gneiss day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Day 3 no change - I really wish i could take clear pics :/ Johnnydok and Edwardnah 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Still alive, that's good. -- it was at about a week I saw a change. Keiris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xubarku Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Just curious, how long does it normally take for this "fungus" to kill? I've been trying to save one shrimp in particular for... probably five, if not six weeks now. She's still doing fine as far as I can tell. It makes me wonder if there aren't multiple pathogens being considered the same thing... jordanroda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Shrimp Depot Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Xubarku - what are you doing to treat your shrimp? I really can't tell you how long until the shrimp sucumbs to the pathogen, given it's a parasite it's in it's interest to keep the host organism alive so it can spread to other hosts. Highly virulent pathogens are rarely very successful unless they have a extremely efficient infection vector. My GUESS would be the shrimp dies from stress/exhaustion rather than the the protozoan directly. Probably most that we try to treat die from the treatment as shrimp are very sensitive to what's in the water -- which is why I went to the dark therapy idea. Speaking of the dark therapy --- my subject shrimp has how been in bright light for a week solid with the light on 24/7. I examined him today and can find no evidence of relapse, which is a pretty big surprise to me. I can only say at this point that I've had interesting observations on a case subject. I don't think I can declare the shrimp cured yet, and am very hesitant about re-introduction until at least another week of isolation with continual light. I'm anxious to know how Keiris is doing with her shrimp. I'm hoping it's been kept dark enough and long enough that we'll soon see some results. Another thing I've been surprised with during this treatment is that the shrimp has not been fed in 3 weeks, but has derived enough to eat from the little bit of java moss and alder cones. Probably the snail feces generates some biofilm as well. I bought some imported shrimp this week and I hope they don't show signs of the disease (despite wanting another test subject). It would be difficult to pick up if they do have it because they are in a low lit tank and they are jade green Neos. Keiris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 No change...I did a small water change & added more IAL :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xubarku Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 I've tried a little bit of everything. At the moment, I'm doing the dips as described by Lyana, dosing Paraguard at half strength in their quarintine tank, and doing an admittedly halfassed attempted at dark therapy. I haven't wrapped their tank with paper, so they get some indirect natural light, but it's minimal. This will be the fifth day of treatment. I DO have a third in there I thought was getting sick, but she seems to be just berried now. Not sure if I misdiagnosed, or the treatment was successful and she simply happened to be berried. Shame I didn't take photos. It's worth noting I've yet to hear about this infecting a male.The "fungus" was very advanced on my two. Spinnerets were entirely covered, with growth beginning to creep up the sides. Knowing how bad my shrimp were while still seeming otherwise healthy, I have no doubt you'll notice any issues with your jades. Since the above treatment began, I feel the fungus has become a more subdued, yellowish green, with a possible decreased in mass on one of them, but it's still very much hanging on. If the treatment is successful, I'll make sure to post.On the topic of the fungus being a photosynethic protozoan, my experience seems to support that. My quartine tank is actually a one gallon tank with a 13 watt cfl on top. Under the higher par (as said, since stopped using the light) the fungus seemed to undergo a growth spurt. This could also be influenced by cooler (~70 vs 78 degree) water, or me ceasing Melafix treatment (which I originally assumed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyana Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 The fungus on my shrimp did turn a duller before falling off so hopefully that a good sign. I have since added mine back to the tank and as of today no signs of any fungus on him or the others. Keiris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 OK, I'm going to join this experiment! I have to get all my supplies, but I am planning to set up a small quarantine "critter keeper" for my infected female (why are they all female?). I assume I don't need a sponge filter or anything? Should I plan to dose with paraguard, or just do the light blocking + moss/IAL/alder/guava leaves? Wish we could sequence this thing and find out what it really is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiris Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Still no changes but the shrimp has lost all of his color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just an update - I've had one shrimp in quarantine for a week. I've dosed 1/2 strength paraguard 3 times in that time period. The mini tank has IAL, guava leaf, gravel from an established tank, and a sponge filter. It is almost completely dark. I gave her a small bit of bacter AE 2x. I can't see her ventral side, but she is still alive. How often do you guys dose the paraguard? And no water changes, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Is this stuff only ever green? I just found a large shrimp with it, but it's more pale yellow than green. I can't see her underside, but this is what she looks like from the side. Is there any chance this is eggs or something else? Sorry for the blurry shots. I was holding the phone with one hand and the net with the other. I just moved her to "the hole" just in case. But if she's berried, that would be such a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Are you able to take a pic more of the underside? Eggs will be more round, and the fungus will be spiky. sarah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'll try! I'll net her out into a clear cup and try to get a few shots. Stay tuned! Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 These photos kinda make it look like it may be eggs, but I am 99% sure it's not. I wish I could get a clearer pic, but I was shooting upside down through the bottom of a petri dish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadO Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 It's looking like fungus to me. If you go to your first set of photos where she's in the net (post #71) and then look at the right picture (sick?.jpg) you can see how the green is in "clumps" where there look to be 4 separate "clumps" with space in-between. With eggs, the clutch is generally all continuous. Also, in that picture, you can see the "spiky" tips that Soothing is talking about. In your most recent pics, again the 2nd picture on the right, it shows a green clump in the middle top, and lesser green everywhere else. Now, compare that to your avatar picture where the clutch is all nice and held together, and "tucked up" against her more. To me, this sure looks like fungus from all that I can see. The only time that I really see eggs bulging out are when they are very close to hatching, and the female has a large clutch to hold onto. Otherwise, they generally keep them pretty fairly well together. I'd love nothing more to be wrong here, but I'd vote fungus on the pics provided so far. sarah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.