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HELP Continuous Shrimp Deaths


jledermann
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Hey guys I know theres tons of these threads but I need another brain on this one. As an engineer I know sometimes all I need is another view point to bring it all together so here goes.

 

I have a 29 gal tall shrimp tank that has housed CRS and super princess bee shrimp for about 2.5 years now and a 10 gal for cherries and OEBT. I kinda let the tanks go over my extremely busy summer and over the past 2 months been working on getting them back to tip top shape. My super princess bee colony had exploded and out competed the CRS and ultimately made the CRS colony dwindle so recently I've been purchasing some new CRS blood to add to the tank.

My water parameters are fine, nitrate nitrite and ammonia all at zero, TDS 140-150 and GH 4-6 KH 0-1 temp at 74 degress F.

Now what has been happening is for about the last 2 months I've been using glassgarten products bacter AE shrimp dinner and shrimp baby and my shrimp seemed to be doing great, have great color, are breading and are very active, however I have been finding anywhere from 1-5 dead shrimp on the bottom of the tank every day for a few weeks now! I feed once a day to once every other day. I can trace it back in my memory to be right around when I received some shrimp from Shrimpusa.com, I purchased some CRS of various grades and some Bloody Marrys. One of the bloody marrys showed signs of some sort of parasite, looked like green branches sticking down below the tail and no it WAS NOT EGGS I made sure. Needless to say that one did not make it into any tanks and my concerns were raised at that point. I put the CRS and remaining bloody marrys into my tanks and went on with my business. A few days later a CRS or 2 and a bloody marry in the other tank had died, nothing out of the ordinary maybe just stressed from the shipping and didnt make it, however it did not stop there. A few cherries and OEBT then passed away along with a few more of the princess bee over the next few days. All the bodies seemed to be turning very red from about the tip of the head to mid way thru the body of the shrimp. The cherries and OEBT have seemed to level off and the consistancy of deaths has seem to tail off and the shrimp appear to be doing fine. Ive done a few 20-40% water changes on the 29 gal tall and it seems to not matter the deaths continue.

Is the discoloration a sign of something?

I use tap water that comes out at about 6.5 ph and 40-50 tds so i remineralize it with salty shrimp to about 130-150 before I put it into the tank.

I use excel usually on a regular basis only dosing below recommending amount. 

Is there a tell tail way to know theres a bacteria present effecting the shrimps?

I know hardness usually effecting molting and most people describe being able to identify a molting problem by the shell stuck to a dead shrimp, I have not seen any of that, is there another way to identify this issue? could the water be too hard?

I recently received some fissidens fontanus on stainless steel mesh but I've had the mesh in the tank prior and it caused no harm but I did cut some off and use flourish glue to fix it to drift wood. Has anyone ever had bad effects from super glue or this flourish glue on shrimp?

 

Sorry this is so long winded but I'm just trying to throw all the factors out there to try and help someone make a judgement. 

Please feel free to ask any more questions or for clarification I would love to get to the bottom of these and possibly help some people in the community with similar issues

  

post-2708-0-11798800-1444079778_thumb.jp

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From my experience, super glue is perfectly fine with shrimp, and the flourish glue is the same thing. Also have had great experience with Excel. 

 

We can also rule out the fungus, since the evidence would be evident. The red coloration you are seeing is caused by the denaturing of some of the proteins, and if you were to let the decomposition process continue, the entire shrimp would have become red. 

 

For bacterial infections, I've noticed that the shrimp sports a cloudy, milky coloration within. This progresses for several weeks, and becomes widespread throughout the body and more opaque, eventually leading to death. It is also surprisingly contagious, but removing ones with signs of infection appear to save the rest of the colony. I've also read that the infection may cause broken antenna, but I've yet to experience this. 

 

Based on the fact that your OEBT + cherries tank is now doing fine, whereas your CRS + bee tank isn't, I would guess that the Bacter AE is raising the TDS to unsafe levels. The instructions on the product has been found to be a little too liberal, and I've seen recommendations of reducing the amount used by as low as 1/10th the recommended dose. Perhaps you could test the water to test this theory out? 

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RBed?

TDS is currently 150 via TDS pen. The tank is pretty heavily planted so its hard to track individuals. I will try and sit down for 20-30 minutes and try and see if I notice discoloration, I've been looking for the green looking growths under the tails since I saw the shrimp come in with it. Over feeding with the new food is a concern of mine so I didn't feed for 2 days and lost 11 shrimp that I could find. Im considering doing a 15% WC and remineralizing to 120 tds and try and lower progressively to 110-120 from 150 over the next week or so. Any thoughts? Thanks for the quick response

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RBed?

TDS is currently 150 via TDS pen. The tank is pretty heavily planted so its hard to track individuals. I will try and sit down for 20-30 minutes and try and see if I notice discoloration, I've been looking for the green looking growths under the tails since I saw the shrimp come in with it. Over feeding with the new food is a concern of mine so I didn't feed for 2 days and lost 11 shrimp that I could find. Im considering doing a 15% WC and remineralizing to 120 tds and try and lower progressively to 110-120 from 150 over the next week or so. Any thoughts? Thanks for the quick response

 

Google "RBed"

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The following thread may shed a little light on what James is alluding to. The entire thread is worth a read, but you may find page 2 particularly illuminating.

 

http://www.shrimpspot.com/index.php?/topic/3386-the-green-fungus/?hl= green fungus

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The following thread may shed a little light on what James is alluding to. The entire thread is worth a read, but you may find page 2 particularly illuminating.

 

http://www.shrimpspot.com/index.php?/topic/3386-the-green-fungus/?hl= green fungus

Ah, now it makes sense. 

 

That thread reminds me, there is another type of bacterial infection that appears to literally melt holes in the exoskeleton. Any feedback on their appearances? 

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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I've read through the majority of that thread. Im pretty upset with this guys integrity, pretty messed up stuff. The green fungus is not showing up but the shrimps continue to die, I guess another parasite or fungus was introduced as well?

I will see how things are looking when I get home from work today.

 

What do you guys think is the best course of action just wait it out? Or start to treat the tank as a whole?

Would a UV sterilizer help?

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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I've read through the majority of that thread. Im pretty upset with this guys integrity, pretty messed up stuff. The green fungus is not showing up but the shrimps continue to die, I guess another parasite or fungus was introduced as well?

I will see how things are looking when I get home from work today.

 

What do you guys think is the best course of action just wait it out? Or start to treat the tank as a whole?

Would a UV sterilizer help?

 

I use Blue LED light to check the bacteria infection.

 

Isolate the infected ones ASAP.

 

post-231-0-53969300-1444151834_thumb.jpg

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Thanks for the replies guys and gals and thank you James for the nice picture, I'm assuming infected shrimp will show a brighter white color then the non infected ones? Is there a brand of blue LED you use?

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Thanks for the replies guys and gals and thank you James for the nice picture, I'm assuming infected shrimp will show a brighter white color then the non infected ones? Is there a brand of blue LED you use?

 

Yes, healthy shrimp looks transparent. 

post-231-0-71483100-1444158383_thumb.jpg

 

I use LED chip to build my own. but any blue LED should work.

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just got home, 1 dead adult and 1 dead baby i found... no obvious signs of green fungus or discoloration. I have a blue LED night light for fish I turned off all the lights and shined into the tank but I don't believe its bright enough. Does that trick work with red crystal shrimp because the white on their bodies seems to glow

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I couldn't find any information online regarding diagnosing CRS, other than sluggishness, fading of color, and missing body parts. Their shells can indeed be very opaque, so I would assume using an LED will be very difficult. That is a very useful trick, however. 

 

Definitely do not wait it out. Separating the infected individuals is key and can not be emphasized enough. 

 

Recommended courses of action, bar removing infected indivduals, include the more frequent changing of water, addition of O2, and the addition of both Excel and something that releases a lot of tannins (i.e. Indian Almond Leaves, Guava, etc.). The tannins and Excel act as a bactericide/fungicide, and the changing of water reduces water-borne bacteria counts and oxygenates water. This course of action is relatively risk-free, and can fix multiple issues, such as nitrate poisoning, as well. 

 

If you are positive it is bacterial, there are more drastic measures detailed here: http://www.shrimpspot.com/index.php?/topic/3388-possible-bacteria-cures/ 

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thanks for the suggestion, I think its a combination of the GH getting a little too high via Bacter AE so I'm bringing it down, and some sickness brought in by buy shrimp from RB. Funny thing when I first saw the green growth my google search brought up the last page of that thread you guys directed me to. If only I read the first 2 pages and saw the experiences other people had directly associated with shrimpusa.com I probably would have shipped the shrimp right back to him and said no thank you. I thought maybe mine was just bad luck and isolated. Wont buy from members not associated or approved by this forum again... NOW I KNOW

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Contribute it to hands on learning. :)

 

We are determined that there be few secrets in shrimping here.  I think that's one thing that sets us apart from other forums.  The more people know, the more success in shrimping, and the more our hobby will grow which is good for everyone.

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I totally agree, I got home today and 5 shrimp were dead on the bottom.. did a 20% WC yesterday and added glassgarten betaglucan. Im thinking there's something bacterial going on... really hard to tell tho, I've been tank side watching them on a spinach cube and cannot notice anything abnormal.... so sad

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a shrimp just essentially died in front of me.. he was laying on his side so i touched him with the tweezers and just started flicking and then swimming straight until he hit some frogbit on the surface of the aquarium and he continued to try and swim straight while just pushing against a leaf of frogbit and not going anywhere. He then eventually stopped and sunk back to the bottom. I noted his eyes were noticeably red. Ive added an airstone to eliminate that possibility 

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eheim 2213, I was using it in conjunction with a sponge filter but the sponge filter was very disturbing in the house so I removed it a few months ago so I'm thinking with an increase in shrimp, adding new stock, and removal of the sponge filter I may be taxing the oxygen levels produced by my plants. I turned the light on this morning and woke everyone up early in the name of science, no deaths and shrimp looked very active... maybe a good sign?! I will report back this afternoon on how things are going

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