Ultra-sorb as shrimp substrate?

[h4n]

I've used and still using Safe t sorb for planted tanks never tried it on shrimp tanks.

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[nightshadebel]

it use to be really popular 5 or 6 six years ago.

[pucksr]

On 3/10/2016 at 9:45 PM, shrymprdan said:

Never mind everyone, it was ME that was mistaken! I was wrong about what I said about fillers earth being in ultrasorb.

It is Saf T Sorb that uses fullers earth.

Gonna have to go investigate some ultrasorb now!

Again, I apologize for spreading bad info....

That looks a lot like fuller's earth. D.E. is normally used like activated carbon.

http://www.jaxonfiltration.com/Clays-Sorbents-Materials.html

On 3/4/2016 at 0:40 AM, Skrimps said:

pretty sure it's an inert substance. I've used it before to kill bedbugs.

Neither Fuller's Earth or D.E. are really going to be "inert" as a substrate. They are inert chemically, but in our aquariums they are going to bind up with a lot of material. That is going to have the net result of softening your water and lowering your TDS(and lowering your pH). Basically, you are turning your aquarium substrate into a giant filter bed. This is how most of your active substrates work. However, that should be temporary.

I just wanted to warn you because I have seen people complain about products like this being an additional variable when trying to get a stable water chemistry. It isn't a HUGE problem, but it isn't sand.

 

[Skrimps]

4 hours ago, pucksr said:

That looks a lot like fuller's earth. D.E. is normally used like activated carbon.

http://www.jaxonfiltration.com/Clays-Sorbents-Materials.html

Neither Fuller's Earth or D.E. are really going to be "inert" as a substrate. They are inert chemically, but in our aquariums they are going to bind up with a lot of material. That is going to have the net result of softening your water and lowering your TDS(and lowering your pH). Basically, you are turning your aquarium substrate into a giant filter bed. This is how most of your active substrates work. However, that should be temporary.

I just wanted to warn you because I have seen people complain about products like this being an additional variable when trying to get a stable water chemistry. It isn't a HUGE problem, but it isn't sand.

 

Thanks, that's good to know for the future. It is pretty porous stuff at a microscopic view so I guess that's more surface area for things to get stuck in and attracted to. Does it make a noticeable difference in water chemistry?

[pucksr]

Depends. 

Both have a high CEC, which is the ability to attract positively charged things in the water. Which is why planters love them. A lot of fertilizers are positively charged(cations).

Chemical                                                                                                                                        Result
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calcium and Magnesium are both positively charged. (This is what causes water to be hard)=>Soft Water or low GH
Calcium Carbonate(CaCO3) is ALSO positively charged==============================>Super Soft Water or low KH
Hydrogen is positively charged==================================================>low pH

So, this is going to strip your water down to soft water with a low pH if you use too much of it. I have seen Montmorillonite strip water of so much calcium that snails couldn't grow shells. However, that won't continue forever. Just be careful and realize that in a few days your pH, GH, KH, and TDS may all drop like a stone. You also won't be able to restore them with a simple sprinkle of powder. If you use tapwater for your shrimp, you are fine. If you use distilled water? I wouldn't recommend.
 

[Crackhead Johny]

On 3/4/2016 at 9:35 AM, Pokeshrimp said:

I'm sure its the diatomaceous earth that kills the bed bugs. I use it to kill ants and spiders around the kid's play area. Its supposed to be sharp at a microscopic level and cuts up their exoskeletons.

Not quite. At least from what I learned while landscaping.

As I understand it is sharp and they get it on their feet, they clean their feet with their mouth. So it is like feeding them broken glass. This is what happens whey they do not read the "Ants and Spiders must wash feet before returning to Kid's play area" sign when they go to the bathroom.

[Wygglz]

Now I'd feel bad using it! I'd have nightmares of torturing little bugs...

[Shrimple minded]

From Wikipedia:

Diatomite is used as an insecticide, due to its abrasive and physico-sorptive properties.[8] The fine powder absorbs lipids from the waxy outer layer of insects' exoskeletons, causing them to dehydrate.

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[oem]

On 4/8/2016 at 10:33 AM, pucksr said:

That looks a lot like fuller's earth. D.E. is normally used like activated carbon.

http://www.jaxonfiltration.com/Clays-Sorbents-Materials.html

Neither Fuller's Earth or D.E. are really going to be "inert" as a substrate. They are inert chemically, but in our aquariums they are going to bind up with a lot of material. That is going to have the net result of softening your water and lowering your TDS(and lowering your pH). Basically, you are turning your aquarium substrate into a giant filter bed. This is how most of your active substrates work. However, that should be temporary.

I just wanted to warn you because I have seen people complain about products like this being an additional variable when trying to get a stable water chemistry. It isn't a HUGE problem, but it isn't sand.

 

 

22 hours ago, pucksr said:

Depends. 

Both have a high CEC, which is the ability to attract positively charged things in the water. Which is why planters love them. A lot of fertilizers are positively charged(cations).

Chemical                                                                                                                                        Result
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calcium and Magnesium are both positively charged. (This is what causes water to be hard)=>Soft Water or low GH
Calcium Carbonate(CaCO3) is ALSO positively charged==============================>Super Soft Water or low KH
Hydrogen is positively charged==================================================>low pH

So, this is going to strip your water down to soft water with a low pH if you use too much of it. I have seen Montmorillonite strip water of so much calcium that snails couldn't grow shells. However, that won't continue forever. Just be careful and realize that in a few days your pH, GH, KH, and TDS may all drop like a stone. You also won't be able to restore them with a simple sprinkle of powder. If you use tapwater for your shrimp, you are fine. If you use distilled water? I wouldn't recommend.
 

Thanks Pucksr,   I understand what you are saying, but I guess my question is this.  Does the DE eventually settle into a stable substrate after equalization/ maturation or will it be changing over time as other variables occur?   Water changes, bacterial /no2 /no3 ups and downs?  Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[pucksr]

3 hours ago, oem said:

Thanks Pucksr,   I understand what you are saying, but I guess my question is this.  Does the DE eventually settle into a stable substrate after equalization/ maturation or will it be changing over time as other variables occur?   Water changes, bacterial /no2 /no3 ups and downs?  Thanks

Short answer: It will eventually settle down after a relatively long period
Shorter answer: If you remineralize your tank, don't use it. 

Long answer: If you keep plants in your tank, it is always going to be a bit weird. The plants and the bacteria that co-exist with the plants are going to do a really good job of stripping some of the cations from the DE. This will mean that it will always have the ability to pull more stuff out of the water column. I have seen a 4 year old tank with regular water changes that is still able to reduce relatively hard 8.2 pH water down to 6.2 pH soft water(in a planted environment)

[oem]

I kind of figured that a fluxing "stability" would occur based on my gardening experience, but wasn't quite sure with shrimp tanks, and water changes.  Environments seem to somewhat stabilize with some extenuating circumstances throwing a money wrench in occasionally.  I enjoy lightly planted tanks, and not fooling with a healthy stable tank . Plus I'm lazy,  So I think I'm going to give this substrate a try as I have the patience and don't need a tank ready in a couple of days.  Thanks

[pucksr]

Let us know, with some data

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[ShrimpP]

10 hours ago, pucksr said:

Short answer: It will eventually settle down after a relatively long period
Shorter answer: If you remineralize your tank, don't use it. 

Long answer: If you keep plants in your tank, it is always going to be a bit weird. The plants and the bacteria that co-exist with the plants are going to do a really good job of stripping some of the cations from the DE. This will mean that it will always have the ability to pull more stuff out of the water column. I have seen a 4 year old tank with regular water changes that is still able to reduce relatively hard 8.2 pH water down to 6.2 pH soft water(in a planted environment)

Wouldn't high CEC just strip carbonate hardness (KH) down to 0, making the pH 7? Then it would require an acidic source to drop the pH even lower (which wouldn't take much with 0dKH, even a bit of nitrates could make the water acidic)?

Or would high CEC alone (D.E. or fuller's earth), without any other acidic sources (hypothetically), be able to drop the pH below 7? Pretty sure they are inert/pH neutral though.

[pucksr]

It gets way more complicated. If you were just filtering the water(pulling cations and anions out) this would be true, but you aren't. You are pulling just cations out. These shift your aquatic mixture to the acid side.

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[Soothing Shrimp]

LOL  I love the science guys!  You lost me waaaay back, but I love the sharing!  Keep it up.