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When you say culling.....that means I just get rid of the ones that are not up to specs?....let's say I've got two nice one out of 10 bad ones....sort of speak... I just get rid of the ones I don't want and keep the 2 I want? ...hopping they'll get me better shrimps?or the one I'm looking for?.......if you keep every single shrimp , then you have to have a lot of room.......and for pretty much nothing because if you keep shrimp with less features ..then what for? sorry for the stupid questions but I want to learn......cheers

"...I just get rid of the ones I don't want and keep the 2 I want"

As long as they are male/female- you could do that.

From what I have read some people like keeping multiple generations because they still have the possibility of throwing that trait because it is recessive.

When people do this, they call them f1, f2, f3... I believe.

Say you like orange eyes (which I believe is a recessive trait, this is why I want a section or article because I have no idea). You have 1 orange eye, and one black eye... you breed them and get a mix. Cull the blacks eyes but keep them breeding because they all have the orange eye gene hidden. 2 that both have the recessive gene can still throw an orange eye. For this generation one with black eyes no longer have the orange eye trait at all... you would sell those.

This is of course all stuff I am guessing at or inferring and why I say culling is much mot we then keeping the pretty ones. While that a good way to describe it to someone just starting I want to learn a bit more then that.

Chris

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I'm pulling this conversation over here into a thread for culling questions! (One facet of selective breeding.. Y'all who want to "pull color out of dots" and other more advanced topics may want to start an advanced topics thread)

I'm starting to get to the point where I have a lot of beginner questions on the subject too, so it might be a good place to come to get advice about the which, when, where, how to from people who do a lot of selection with their shrimp.

I'm sure there are lots of approaches, and it's nice to hear them all, from the super basic to the room-full-of-tanks. So, more experienced selectors, also feel free add a post with your favored criteria/protocol... Plus you'll be able to reference it later when people ask. :)

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My first beginner question... How small do you start separating/culling for visible traits? If I see two 1/2" juvies, one nice and reddish and the other basically clear, is it too soon to move clear-guy to a holding tank? Let's assume they are both the same gender, and I'm not mistaking a female/male difference. I know it depends on the strain, but speaking in general here, are there likely to be deep colored "winners" that start out life really pale? (I'm talking Neos, mostly, but feel free to respond on others as well)

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I guess it depends on how many tanks you have available.  If you have the space it may be worth having a cull and non-cull tank and then you can move the little guys to the cull tank and if their color improves as they get bigger you can just move them back.  

 

Shrimp don't develop their full color till they get larger, but in my experience the smaller they are when they get their color the stronger it will be as an adult.  The benefit of moving them young is you don't need to worry about them breeding in your good tank and spreading genes you don't want.  I am sure you will make some mistakes and move some good ones to the cull tank but as long as you keep them around (not feeding them to fish or selling them) then you can always move them back.

 

I need to do some culling on my blue diamonds so I am starting by just selling culls.  I am sure I will end up netting out a few good ones in the bunch but that isn't a big deal to me and I am sure the buyers would like it :)

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This is going to be a good thread.

For people that don't have a lot of space for multiple shrimp tanks, here's what I'm doing this year for breeding.

My tank is full of tb tibee mischling and Snow White and golden. What I'm planning on doing is letting the tank breed out this year until breeding slow to a complete stop. By that time all the juvis should be of age where there color has shown through, once breeding stops I'm going to cull and weed out the ones that don't have any traits I want. Show faded and washed out color etc and sell them as culls. This way for next breeding season the ones I want to have any traits or color passed down will be in the tank and ready for next breeding season. I also have a breeder box on hand to put in a male and female and selective breed the ones I want for the traits patterns or color I want that will improve the chances of not having too many culls by the end of the year.

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For the majority of shrimp that show some promise by young juvie age, chances are they will not be as nice as the other juvies that *do* show promise.

 

Are there exceptions?  Sure, it's what keeps shrimping interesting- but more than 95% of the time, you can count on the above.

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How particular are you guys about gender balance in a tank you're culling?

 

I have just a couple super-handsome male shrimp, and quite a few more "meh" males. Would you consider culling most of the regular males and leaving just a few to back up the "studmuffins" in the group, or do you try to keep a more even balance between males and females? Any info out there about who the babies tend to resemble more, the male or female?

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I was wondering what your take on the male neos were. Only really colorful males I see are the bloody Mary and my yellows.

-Chris

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  • 4 weeks later...

Some reasons someone may want to buy "culls."

 

1) Not everyone is concerned with prize winning specimens.  Some just want the "type" of shrimp.  

 

Kind of like the difference between casual guppy keepers and show guppy breeders.

 

2) Some just want cheap.

 

3) One also may have very nice quality strain to cull to get even better quality.

 

There's lots of different reasons for culling, and lots of different reasons for buying culls.

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One example for ya... I baught some carbon rilli culls from soothin... splotch rillis... they have random patterns. . I feel like they have allot of potential for my own projects. .. I could breed the back to rilli patterns or try for my own blue shrimp... or who knows I might find a new pattern... just because they are culls doesn't mean they are inferior shrimp by any means

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If you cull then it is to remove specimens with undersized traits so why dissipate them to others when they're are most likely are going to breed further solidifying the undersized traits many are trying to remove from that type variant ?

Depends on what the person doing the culling wants to accomplish. Many cases it's worth buying the culls because they more than likely are from great stock. Many people selective breedinf have strict guidelines they like to follow. I have bought culls that were cheaper and still ended up exceeding my expectations.

-Chris

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  • 1 month later...

My take is,

 

Culling method is largely dependent on the goal. For better colouration? for a particular phenotype (i.e. Taiwan bee or pinto)? for better body shape or special characteristics?

 

Also, how many tanks are being used will also change how you can do this.

 

The main principles I take are,

 

1. Always try to breed the ones you start with to a large enough colony. No point in culling when you only have 5 if you're doing this from scratch.

2. Always be more strict on male, as one bad male can ruin 10 females for a month if not culled in time, and more culls created in that month.

3. The rule for selection should get more and more strict over time. So your population could change from 10, to 50, to 300, then back to 20.

4. Be very careful when adding new genes to the existing colony, you might be starting over again, or lose a few generations' effort. However, it is sometimes necessary if you start to see weak genes.

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One caution to culling, always keep a few. Separate them to a new tank.

Why?

.You may inadvertently not cull a shrimp that carries a fatal gene(usually it's decreased immunity of some sort).

.If you cull by color, you may pull out something that is required to keep your preferred color going.

.if you cull for a feature, you may pull out a recessive carrier that shows up with it's culled fellows.

Anyway. Back up is always good, at least until you get a few generations out, or unless you don't mind having to start over.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This is a great thread. To me culling seems like the hardest part of the hobby. Mainly because you have to get good at spotting traits and sometimes differences can be so subtle. You have to be able to sex the shrimps accurately too which is something i still struggle with. Especially with younger shrimp.

My question though is: How can culling aproach be improved if say you can spare more than 2 tanks?

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I agree with Randy, I don;t start culling until my I can get the population of my colony up to a decent size. But at the same time I like to have part of the tank partitioned off so I can put my top males and females to let them do their thing.  

 

Once the population is large enough I start culling and putting the shrimp I don't like into their own cull tank.  For my PRL this is generally based on color and general patterns. If it is based on pattern you can do this when they are quite young but I usually wait until just before you reach breeding age. For me sincemy breeding program is relatively young i tend to keep more females in my top breeding group and 1 or 2 of the very best male to increase the pool of shrimps to select from for the next generation.

 

For neo's if am culling for color, I am pretty aggressive with the light colored males.  if you are doing both colors and patterns and have the tanks / partitions available you might split the line into two if you don't have individuals that have both characteristics and than cross  them back together few generations later

 

For me, to get the best result less is more - you have to take your very best individuals that have your targeted characteristics.  Once you have them on their own you can start the offsprings with their parents  (young male with mother, young female with father) to bring out certain characteristics.  That being said always have a backup colony - for me that is what I call my "tier 2" colony 

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My take is,

Culling method is largely dependent on the goal. For better colouration? for a particular phenotype (i.e. Taiwan bee or pinto)? for better body shape or special characteristics?

Also, how many tanks are being used will also change how you can do this.

The main principles I take are,

1. Always try to breed the ones you start with to a large enough colony. No point in culling when you only have 5 if you're doing this from scratch.

2. Always be more strict on male, as one bad male can ruin 10 females for a month if not culled in time, and more culls created in that month.

3. The rule for selection should get more and more strict over time. So your population could change from 10, to 50, to 300, then back to 20.

4. Be very careful when adding new genes to the existing colony, you might be starting over again, or lose a few generations' effort. However, it is sometimes necessary if you start to see weak genes.

Another good tip is stick with your culls. Don't add them back if,they turn out to be good. Once a cull never take it back or it is like working backwards.
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  • 1 month later...

This is going to be a good thread.

For people that don't have a lot of space for multiple shrimp tanks, here's what I'm doing this year for breeding.

My tank is full of tb tibee mischling and Snow White and golden. What I'm planning on doing is letting the tank breed out this year until breeding slow to a complete stop. By that time all the juvis should be of age where there color has shown through, once breeding stops I'm going to cull and weed out the ones that don't have any traits I want. Show faded and washed out color etc and sell them as culls. This way for next breeding season the ones I want to have any traits or color passed down will be in the tank and ready for next breeding season. I also have a breeder box on hand to put in a male and female and selective breed the ones I want for the traits patterns or color I want that will improve the chances of not having too many culls by the end of the year.

 

Breeding season. This is the first I have heard mention of a season. Can you elaborate on what you mean here? Are there specific months for breeding? Is it related to light? water chemistry? general durations?

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Mine have sprints, except regular CRS they just don't stop, and a small WC will always speed it up if it shows some slow down.

 

I also find that breeding slow down in the winter for a few months in general.

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  • 3 years later...

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