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Tangerine Tiger shrimplet loss


aotf
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Sorry if this isn't the right section, not sure if this counts as "breeding" specifically.

I have some TTs that have started berrying pretty frequently in my neo tank a couple months ago (3 females, 1 male, there are usually 2 berried at any given time) and I have grand total of 1 shrimplet that has made it thus far.

The first two clutches to hatch were small and I only saw 4 survivors after the first couple weeks. I moved them all to a breeder box within the tank so I could monitor them a little more closely and do targeted baby food feedings. The next two clutches hatched in the breeder and all the shrimplets from those clutches disappeared in a week. Disheartened, I moved everyone out of the breeder back into the main tank. Of the 4 original survivors, 2 were left. Then I saw a berried mom eating one of them. So down to one survivor out of 4 hatched clutches.
 

The breeder was in the tank for 1-2 weeks before the two batches hatched so I assumed biofilm wasn't an issue. While they were in the breeder, I fed small amounts of crushed adult and baby food every day or two. Nitrates are always low in that tank, it's a very heavily planted 8 gal so plant-uptake of nitrates always outpaces waste production.

 

A large batch hatched in the main tank two days ago and I have two berried TTs at the moment, so the mommas are super prolific.

 

Known problems:
- SCUDS! My tank has so many scuds. Some say they prey on shrimplets. I was hoping the breeder box would be a scud-free zone to prevent that from happening but they invaded and there were hundreds in there with the shrimp.

- Parameters are probably borderlines for TTs, but the parents are breeding well so I'm not sure what to think.

 

pH 7.4-7.6

kH 3

gH 5-6

TDS 220

Temp ~68F right now, no heater

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

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Two things you need to account for. What is your NO3? If very high small ones might not make it. 

 

The other one - how do you remineralize? All living things inclusive plants consume nutrients and the water may lack some trace elements which the shrimp need. Some plants tend to consume more nutrients than others and it may leave the water barren. No Way to tell for sure other than dose some trace and check if the situation is improving over time. 

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6 hours ago, dao said:

Two things you need to account for. What is your NO3? If very high small ones might not make it. 

 

The other one - how do you remineralize? All living things inclusive plants consume nutrients and the water may lack some trace elements which the shrimp need. Some plants tend to consume more nutrients than others and it may leave the water barren. No Way to tell for sure other than dose some trace and check if the situation is improving over time. 

 

Nitrates are always low in that tank, I haven't seen them at a measurable level for months (API drop test). I even thought my test kit was messed up until I cycled another tank and got some normal readings.
 

The tank with the TTs is tap + SS GH+. I (very occasionally) throw in some Thrive from NilocG, so I can give that a shot to see if it helps. I figured tap water probably has a bunch of trace elements but you might be onto something with the plants pulling everything out of the water. The scuds are reproducing fine but I guess they're just hardier overall.

 

EDIT: I just gave the tank a pump of Thrive, hopefully it's not too late for the last batch of TT babies! I saw one hanging out on the glass so at least some are still alive.

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3 hours ago, aotf said:

 

Nitrates are always low in that tank, I haven't seen them at a measurable level for months (API drop test). I even thought my test kit was messed up until I cycled another tank and got some normal readings.
 

The tank with the TTs is tap + SS GH+. I (very occasionally) throw in some Thrive from NilocG, so I can give that a shot to see if it helps. I figured tap water probably has a bunch of trace elements but you might be onto something with the plants pulling everything out of the water. The scuds are reproducing fine but I guess they're just hardier overall.

 

EDIT: I just gave the tank a pump of Thrive, hopefully it's not too late for the last batch of TT babies! I saw one hanging out on the glass so at least some are still alive.

I think u know api no3 test , need a good shake befora testing, if you not shake well it show 0 no3.

I keep tangerine tigers, with salty shrimp gh /kh and ro ... and have lot of babies..

Two thinks maybe is the problem, your tap or thrive...

What plants are u keep and need ferts ?

Can u take a photo?

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3 hours ago, nicpapa said:

I think u know api no3 test , need a good shake befora testing, if you not shake well it show 0 no3.

I keep tangerine tigers, with salty shrimp gh /kh and ro ... and have lot of babies..

Two thinks maybe is the problem, your tap or thrive...

What plants are u keep and need ferts ?

Can u take a photo?


I shake my NO3 test kits pretty well before testing (15-30 sec vigorous shake + slapping and banging on the table). I also test other tanks at the same time and those get normal readings (20-30 ppm) but the TT tank is always 0 ppm.

Thrive is supposed to be fine for shrimp, I dose maybe once a month so I don't think I'm killing them with ferts.
I keep a lot of plants but my tank is mid-tech (low ferts, no CO2, no CO2 dosing, mid-high light). Myrio red, AR mini, monte carlo carpet, a little bit of java moss, frogbit.

I could switch to RO if I have to but I'm hoping it's not necessary.

IMG_7175.JPG

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I can see a coupe of potencial issues. 

 

1. Heavy plants tank with demanding  plants. Unless  you have a fert  Rich soil like Ada amazonia you have to dose something to keep the plants growing. Excess nutrients will have bad  effect on shrimp as their deficiency has. The key is to keep things balanced which is why most keep shrimp with simple undemanding plants and mosses. You May think you are not killing them with ferts but how can you be sure? 

 

2 you have a huge rock - are you 100% sure it is inert? Most rock will leech minerals to water which can be hazardous for shrimp. 

 

3. You never know whats inside your tap water and in tap there is plenty already. 

 

 

I understand that you love how your tank looks and you would hate to change it. So my advice is to either try with more hardy shrimp like neo's or do another shrimp specific tank the right way - ro+minerals+trace for shrimp and possibly a shrimp soil if you want caridinas. 

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5 hours ago, dao said:

I can see a coupe of potencial issues. 

 

1. Heavy plants tank with demanding  plants. Unless  you have a fert  Rich soil like Ada amazonia you have to dose something to keep the plants growing. Excess nutrients will have bad  effect on shrimp as their deficiency has. The key is to keep things balanced which is why most keep shrimp with simple undemanding plants and mosses. You May think you are not killing them with ferts but how can you be sure? 

 

2 you have a huge rock - are you 100% sure it is inert? Most rock will leech minerals to water which can be hazardous for shrimp. 

 

3. You never know whats inside your tap water and in tap there is plenty already. 

 

 

I understand that you love how your tank looks and you would hate to change it. So my advice is to either try with more hardy shrimp like neo's or do another shrimp specific tank the right way - ro+minerals+trace for shrimp and possibly a shrimp soil if you want caridinas. 

 

1. That tank actually does have ADA Amazonia. I set up this tank before I understood that you should either make a high-tech planted tank or a low-tech shrimp tank, not both -_- I've heard from other shrimpers that Thrive is shrimp-safe.

 

2. Correct! I forgot to mention it in the OP but I do not know if it is inert and I am also worried it is leeching stuff into the water since the deaths don't correlate with water changes and the parameters are ok. I don't want to pull it out yet because I'm worried it will kick up stuff in the substrate, ammonia spike, and kill everything.

 

3. True.

 

It's funny you mention changing my tank, I'm actually tearing this one down in about a month to make a "shrimp-safe" tank. The new setup will be like what you describe: mosses, buce, inert rocks. I just set up a 12" cube like that as well.

 

I was hoping to transfer some baby TTs to their new tank since they will handle the transition better and I'm worried the parents might die, which is why I'm trying to solve the problem in this tank first. Also, the TT tank already has Black Diamond neos in it. They're berried and scheduled to hatch this week so we'll see if it's just the TTs that are sensitive or if my tank is bad for all shrimp.

 

I also have a card tank with CBS/CRS/GBs. I've had them about a month, there are a couple berried shrimp but no one has hatched yet.

 

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1 hour ago, aotf said:

 

2. Correct! I forgot to mention it in the OP but I do not know if it is inert and I am also worried it is leeching stuff into the water since the deaths don't correlate with water changes and the parameters are ok. I don't want to pull it out yet because I'm worried it will kick up stuff in the substrate, ammonia spike, and kill everything.

 

 

Without knowing what kind of rock it is.  Most (not all) rocks with different colored "veins" in them ( the really pretty rocks) leech stuff into the water.  This was a pointer I was given early in my fishkeeping start.  Which has come true in every instance that I went against that advice and added the pretty rock to my tanks.  Luckily it was in fish tanks vs. shrimp tanks because it took me a long time to figure it out.

 

That said this is the advice I now live by when trying new rocks

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If your parameters are correct then I am leaning towards scuds and not enough biofilm/food. Scuds will outcompete shrimp for food and eat baby shrimp and any size moulting/vulnerable shrimp. I'm not all that familiar with Thrive but I believe he has a regular version and shrimp safe version, which do you have.

 

http://nilocg.com/ThriveS/

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If I was you based on the scuds ALONE I would tear down or turn this into a fish tank and start another shrimp tank...

There are a few issues here which would cause me to suggest the need for a restart or new tank- and Whoa I just noticed your ph is very high , why? I kept my tangerine tigers in 6.5 and tds around 150-160

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3 hours ago, chappy6107 said:

 

Without knowing what kind of rock it is.  Most (not all) rocks with different colored "veins" in them ( the really pretty rocks) leech stuff into the water.  This was a pointer I was given early in my fishkeeping start.  Which has come true in every instance that I went against that advice and added the pretty rock to my tanks.  Luckily it was in fish tanks vs. shrimp tanks because it took me a long time to figure it out.

 

That said this is the advice I now live by when trying new rocks

 

Yup, that is one of the reasons this tank is coming down in a couple weeks. It was my first shrimp tank and I made several mistakes when setting it up (including mystery rocks). Moving forward, it's wood or known rocks for me. I suspect the vein is some kind of iron based off of the color (which shouldn't be too harmful) but I'm really just guessing at that point, so this rock is not going into future tanks.

 

2 hours ago, dazalea said:

If your parameters are correct then I am leaning towards scuds and not enough biofilm/food. Scuds will outcompete shrimp for food and eat baby shrimp and any size moulting/vulnerable shrimp. I'm not all that familiar with Thrive but I believe he has a regular version and shrimp safe version, which do you have.

 

http://nilocg.com/ThriveS/

 

I got my Thrive before ThriveS was available. I'll pick it up if I continue to see these issues after the tear-down. If it's not the scuds or rocks, that leaves the tap and ferts.

 

2 hours ago, dazalea said:

If I was you based on the scuds ALONE I would tear down or turn this into a fish tank and start another shrimp tank...

There are a few issues here which would cause me to suggest the need for a restart or new tank- and Whoa I just noticed your ph is very high , why? I kept my tangerine tigers in 6.5 and tds around 150-160

 

Totally agree, that's the biggest reason I'm tearing this tank down early Jan. I was hoping to have some baby TTs by then in case the parents don't handle the transition well but I might not have that luxury.
What other issues would make you start a new tank? Just to make sure I'm not making another mistake I'll regret in a couple months.


The pH is high because I'm using tap and it comes out at ph 8+ for me. These guys are at the upper range of what I've seen people keep them at, but I've heard TTs have a reputation of being really hardy. My impression was that they're often kept in card parameters because they're occasionally bred with cards (tangtais!), but that --like other tigers-- they can do well in neo ranges. I'm thinking of starting to age my tap with IAL and alder cones to see if I can drop the pH a bit before it goes in the tank, I'd be more comfortable with a pH of 7.2-7.4 for my neos.

I do plan on migrating some to a card tank but overall it's convenient to keep them in my neo tank so they don't breed with my cards (...assuming the babies can survive in these parameters).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sort of update:

So I have a 12" cube I was getting ready to transfer all my neos/TTs into once I tear down the tank they are in. I'd been doing water changes with tap and letting the tank settle for 1-2 months before doing the transfer. Y'all have convinced me to switch it over to RODI with GH/KH+, so I swapped out 2 gallons for RODI + Red Wizard last night and I have some GH/KH+ on the way. I'm hoping this will let me bring down the pH to 7.2-7.4 (and just be more stable overall).

I also took 1 scud-free gallon of the neo/TT tank water and moved it to a pitcher with a tiny HOB (with an active bacterial colony in the filter). I then moved 2 berried neos into it to see if I could successfully hatch them outside of the main tank. The idea was to test whether it was the water, the scuds, the shrimp species' innate preference, etc... It's been just under a week after they hatched and I'm still seeing many neo babies. This suggests that the problems I'm having with the TT shrimplets could be due to a couple things: they just require different parameters than I have, the scuds are killing them, they are starving (I feed the pitcher with BacterAE or other baby foods every day). The next test is to try to hatch TTs in the same pitcher, the next one is scheduled for early Jan. I don't know if I'll get that far since I'm hoping to have the new tank ready for them by then anyway so there's no point diagnosing the tank I'm tearing down.

I'm still debating if I should move my TTs to the new neo tank (similar parameters to what they have now, they are always berried and active) or to a card tank (2 point pH drop, very different parameters, I'm nervous I'd kill them with the transition).

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

New sort of update:

All neos and TTs have been moved to the RODI GH/KH+ 7 gal cube. The neo shrimplets that I transferred in look good, I'm seeing a lot so they seem to be doing well.
There's been a TT clutch released into the tank but I can't tell if the babies survived yet because the orange babies I have could be red neos (I'm leaning towards red neos, it's been a week and I don't see any TT patterning on them yet) but my fingers are crossed.

If they still can't breed properly, I'll consider moving them to a card-only tank that's currently cycling.

New tank parameters:
pH 7.2

gH 7

kH 5 (3 is my target)

Temp 70-71

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/14/2018 at 2:16 PM, chappy6107 said:

bring on the shrimplets

 

Brought.

 

IMG_7397.png.cdd68872cf5d56cf0ce608ff7bf23eeb.png

IMG_7398.png.0c7d3b70b52dc97809d75729b7d6f3b8.png

 

IMG_7393.png.877205becac4ea755b607d075e12eb0b.png

 

IMG_7396.png.4ddfd3b3ece6c920cd3070162354d918.png

 

 

Up until this morning, I thought that all my TTs had been dying. I've seen 3 berries females in this tank hatch their clutches and nothing! A lot of weirdly colored, semi-transparent neo shrimplets but no TTs. Earlier today, I finally saw one with the beginnings of TT patterning. Then another. Then another. Then another. And then I realized that all those ugly neos were actually baby TTs. Success!

It seems that, despite its high kH and pH, this tank is doing the trick. I'll never know if it was scud predation, the rock leeching stuff, or bad tap but I'm on my way to a tiger colony. I'm also still dosing Thrive so it seems that's not a big deal.

 

pH 7.4-7.6

kH 5

gH 7

TDS 170

temp 68-70

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