Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 So about a 1.5 months ago I setup a 2.5 nano tank, the typical cheap ones one can buy from petsmart/petco etc. Air driven double sponge filter, the cheapo 3 dollar ones one can buy from the internet. Some old sand substrate that I had in a bag from ages ago. I let it cycle for about a month, everything was good to go. The usual ;D 10 Tiger Shrimp, 5 blue diamond in the tank they go. Day 1 went alright....... day 2 I noticed a dead moth in the tank and 3 dead shrimp around. The shrimp's head turn red first and then they flop over twitching. This continued even after water changes etc. All the way down to 2-3 shrimp left. In frustration I tossed endler females to see how they would react with the water as I didn't see any real issues with water chemistry (ammonia, nitrite [which were both at 0 btw], tds 275, ph 6.5, gH 5-6, kH 0-1) and to my amazement.....the endler females became sluggish. They drifted to the bottom and stopped swimming basically. One female started getting ich. At this point in time I took out all the shrimp (1 tiger, 2 blue diamond) and the 2 pregnant endlers. I put the shrimp into breeder boxes on my channoides tank and the endlers back into their parent tank. Surprisingly the shrimp made a full recovery, their cloudiness disappeared. The fish returned to their normal state as well. Final decision: nuke the tank. Throw out the substrate, throw out the moss, throw out the home depot bbq lava rocks. H202 clean the whole tank and the sponge filter I was using. Restart- So I decided well let's restart the tank. I took about 2 inches of ADA africana in the tank. New lava rocks rinsed, new trimmed fissidens moss from my other tank. Kept the same sponge filter that I used H202 to rinse. I started the cycle. Tds 200, pH 6.0. I threw in about 3 endlers into the tank to get the cycle going....this was after a week of no fish just running in general. No detectable ammonia or nitrite yet. After a day, the fish became sluggish and all of them sat on the substrate ground. I removed them. I then thought to myself well hell, I'll throw a ramshorn in just to give the tank some source of ammonia. About an hour after putting in a ramshorn, it died. (ammonia + nitrite = 0). Minute doses of seachem prime each time when adding the fishes along with seachem stability doses. Apparently this tank seems to be inhabitable. For the love of god I can't figure out what's kickin everyone's butts. I ruled out: -tap water (I use it on all my tanks with no issues) -substrate (I thought maybe it was the old sand, but it's not) -temperature (I have central air so my room is always 73-75) -lava rocks (use it in my other tanks with no issues) -moss (java moss working fine on my other tanks and fissidens as well) The only thing I can think of is my sponge filter...........(was brand new out of package from amazon)..... so I'm going to restart it for a third time and keep the substrate and the moss and rocks. I don't think it's bacterial or viral as it affects both shrimp and fish. Seemingly affecting shrimp more as fish just become sluggish. The only thing I'll do is drain out most of the water and use an older sponge filter that was removed from my old tank because it didn't flow as well. We'll see how it goes. If anyone has any ideas please do chime in. I'm completely baffled at the moment lol..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miwu Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 We're looking at something that'll kill a ramshorn in an hour. It shouldn't be too hard to find. How about just a bucket of water with the sponge filter and a ramshorn as an experiment? Seems to me that's easier to set up. Btw, how were you able to rule out the substrate? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 We're looking at something that'll kill a ramshorn in an hour. It shouldn't be too hard to find. How about just a bucket of water with the sponge filter and a ramshorn as an experiment? Seems to me that's easier to set up. Btw, how were you able to rule out the substrate? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It was probably more like 10 minutes, I kinda watched it to see if it moved for up to an hour lol. I ruled out the substrate, because sand and africana seemingly gave me the same results and I have the same batch of africana in another tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miwu Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 It was probably more like 10 minutes, I kinda watched it to see if it moved for up to an hour lol. I ruled out the substrate, because sand and africana seemingly gave me the same results and I have the same batch of africana in another tank. Right, my bad. I once had this substrate that breaks apart and becomes some white powder and killed my shrimps so I thought it was maybe that or something similar. Yeah, try just putting the sponge filter and a ramshorn in a filled container or something? It's kind of a scary thought that anything going in there dies or gets sick. How are you supposed to eventually feel safe about putting nice, beautiful shrimps in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 Right, my bad. I once had this substrate that breaks apart and becomes some white powder and killed my shrimps so I thought it was maybe that or something similar. Yeah, try just putting the sponge filter and a ramshorn in a filled container or something? It's kind of a scary thought that anything going in there dies or gets sick. How are you supposed to eventually feel safe about putting nice, beautiful shrimps in there? hahaha yeah exactly. Like I've done this process so many times before it's like clockwork.....and bam this is something new I've never tackled before. Usually if it hits shrimps, I don't have an issue with fish. But it gets both! AND IT CAN KILL A RAMSHORN in 10 minutes? Like I'm pretty sure if I left it on a dry surface a ramshorn could last longer lol........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHe Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I would say, the tank is too small to stable. that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I would say, the tank is too small to stable. that's it. er definitely not. I've done 1g that are stable. And that doesn't explain the snail death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamashack Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 No offence intended, but can I ask a couple of probably silly questions? When you say you let it cycle for a month what did you actually do? Have you tried using a liquid form of ammonia to cycle your tank instead of livestock? You'll get consistent results then - aiming for initial ammonia of 1-2 ppm would suffice if it's going to be a shrimp only tank then there would be have plenty bacterial activity to cover. You didn't mention the nitrate level after you initially cycled the tank. Do you have that result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miwu Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 hahaha yeah exactly. Like I've done this process so many times before it's like clockwork.....and bam this is something new I've never tackled before. Usually if it hits shrimps, I don't have an issue with fish. But it gets both! AND IT CAN KILL A RAMSHORN in 10 minutes? Like I'm pretty sure if I left it on a dry surface a ramshorn could last longer lol........ Hahaha agreed. Nothing along the lines of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate is going to kill a ramshorn like that. Like you said, a ramshorn is probably gnna survive longer on a dry surface. People use ramshorns to cycle tanks to they'll definitely tolerate uncycled and unstable environments. I think something in there is poisonous enough for these fish and inverts. It can be from the sponge filter and it might even be impossible to be completely washed off from other materials. It can also be from the tank itself? Why not try a bare bottom tank with just treated water and a ramshorn? It'll take about 30 min to know if the tank can even be used again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 No offence intended, but can I ask a couple of probably silly questions? When you say you let it cycle for a month what did you actually do? Have you tried using a liquid form of ammonia to cycle your tank instead of livestock? You'll get consistent results then - aiming for initial ammonia of 1-2 ppm would suffice if it's going to be a shrimp only tank then there would be have plenty bacterial activity to cover. You didn't mention the nitrate level after you initially cycled the tank. Do you have that result? None taken. I usually never use ammonia to cycle a tank. Usually just plop a couple of rams horns or a few hardy fish as cruel as that May sound to kick off the cycle. Tbh didn't bother to measure nitrate, figured if I were to get lots of it it would have to come from nitrite or ammonia and I would have noticed that. The tap normally is great as it comes out 48 tds at 1dgh and 6.5 ph and with no noticeable problems in my other tanks (5 other tanks running). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 Hahaha agreed. Nothing along the lines of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate is going to kill a ramshorn like that. Like you said, a ramshorn is probably gnna survive longer on a dry surface. People use ramshorns to cycle tanks to they'll definitely tolerate uncycled and unstable environments. I think something in there is poisonous enough for these fish and inverts. It can be from the sponge filter and it might even be impossible to be completely washed off from other materials. It can also be from the tank itself? Why not try a bare bottom tank with just treated water and a ramshorn? It'll take about 30 min to know if the tank can even be used again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Hahahaha I may try that. Sounds like a lot of work tbh during exam week. I'll test just sponge filter in an empty container first I guess when I have the time today. And as for testable victims......I'll have to find some rams horns from the betta tank....lost my only bigger one (1/2 inch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Tested sponge filter......killed a snail. Tested tank with new sponge filter....killed a snail. So dunno if it was the residual water that was in the tank when i took out the sponge filter.....i drained it to about substrate level.....I may have to do a complete rinse of the substrate and complete drainage of the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chibikaie Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 I think your tank is possessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 So I didn't fish out the 5 snails that I assumed were dead in the tank........seems like 1 is alive but 4 are dead.......so maybe it was the filter and it was the residual water that was "substrate" level left from before that killed the shrimp? I'll do another massive water change and test it again later......so busy at school though. edit: 2 snails alive! lol. It may be the sponge filter after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicente Mcdonnell Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Pardon my ignorance but is lava rock ok for shrimp? Maybe it leaches wierd minerals over time? Might have a faster effect in smaller aquariums. I ask because i tied moss to mine but its sitting in an uninhabited tank. Too scared to put it with my shrimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryboy12484 Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 I hope it isnt lol i just put a tun of it in a tank last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Pardon my ignorance but is lava rock ok for shrimp? Maybe it leaches wierd minerals over time? Might have a faster effect in smaller aquariums. I ask because i tied moss to mine but its sitting in an uninhabited tank. Too scared to put it with my shrimp. lava rocks are supposed to be inert. I usually go to Home Depot/ Loews and pickup some BBQ lava rocks and just rinse em out. I have rocks from the same bag in another shrimp tank with no issues, in fact my orange neos walk on them all day. Now it may vary from rock to rock in the same bag, but it's my second selection of rocks from the same bag so I don't think it's the rocks. Certainly a possibility I could look into more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 So I really don't want to waste this new layer of ada africana put in the tank....so I'm probably gonna dry it out and rinse it. Then I'm gonna run the tank barebottom and see how it goes. Maybe petsmart got some crap in their tank's seals. Next step: barebottom test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Not sure if this will help, but I also set up 8 x 5.5 G tank with just those cheapo double sponge filters. Here is what I've learned from this setup that's different from my other tanks, - With Amazonia substrate or with added ammonia source, none of the tanks got cycled in less than 8 weeks. - At least two tanks had this problem: Once I thought they were cycled after more than 8 weeks, I did 100% WC, added shrimps 5 days later, and I can test nitrite in the tank within 2-3 days. And it was another 2 weeks or so before nitrite stopping showing up. - You will need to clean the sponges (preferably one side at a time), otherwise the flow will be noticeably impacted. I don't know the cause of your problem though. I'm pretty sure those snail can survive out of water for more than 10 minutes, so if a snail dies within 10 minutes, it's probably copper or other heavy metal. I've seen many snails in cycling ADA tank with 4ppm ammonia and they would survive and breed in there, so not likely to be any of the NH3/NO2 I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHe Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Well, read carefully this time. I think it's sponge filter you use. You can try one from swisstopicals.com or angelfishplus.com. these are the trust source for sponge filter. I never had any issue with it. cheap sponge filter, you don't know what kind of sponge they are using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananariot Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Not sure if this will help, but I also set up 8 x 5.5 G tank with just those cheapo double sponge filters. Here is what I've learned from this setup that's different from my other tanks, - With Amazonia substrate or with added ammonia source, none of the tanks got cycled in less than 8 weeks. - At least two tanks had this problem: Once I thought they were cycled after more than 8 weeks, I did 100% WC, added shrimps 5 days later, and I can test nitrite in the tank within 2-3 days. And it was another 2 weeks or so before nitrite stopping showing up. - You will need to clean the sponges (preferably one side at a time), otherwise the flow will be noticeably impacted. I don't know the cause of your problem though. I'm pretty sure those snail can survive out of water for more than 10 minutes, so if a snail dies within 10 minutes, it's probably copper or other heavy metal. I've seen many snails in cycling ADA tank with 4ppm ammonia and they would survive and breed in there, so not likely to be any of the NH3/NO2 I would think. I think its probably some heavy metal too or some insecticide.....but I'm not quite sure on the source. Suspect the sponge at this point. Well, read carefully this time. I think it's sponge filter you use. You can try one from swisstopicals.com or angelfishplus.com. these are the trust source for sponge filter. I never had any issue with it. cheap sponge filter, you don't know what kind of sponge they are using. yep it may be the sponge filter. I've used the ones I buy off amazon for quite some time now. But like you said, may not seem like the most reliable source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.