Card tank sanity check

[aotf]

This is going to be a sort of mundane post. Sorry!

 

I've been seeing a random death every once in a while in my new (and first) tb tank and I wanted to see if there was anything obvious I'm missing.
The tank is several months old, was cycled for several weeks before adding any tbs, and currently also houses neos (several of which are berried).

pH 6.6-6.8 (morning)/7 (night)

TDS 186

NH3/NO3/NO2 0/0/0

kH 2 drops

gH 7

 

CO2 no

Ferts: 1 pump Thrive every water change

 

My pH is clearly a bit higher than it should be, as is my kH. That said, I don't know enough about cards to say whether it's enough to cause deaths.

I also know ferts can be problematic but I've heard of shrimpers using Thrive without any issues (I bought it before ThriveS came out) and I use it sparingly.

 

The shrimp are imported and have been in the tank for a month. They came from pH 6.1-6.5 water.

Overall, they're a bit more shy than the rowdy Tangerine Tigers next door.

Is my pH the simple answer to my deaths? Are card imports prone to some attrition? Should I be looking elsewhere in my tank for the culprit?

[Shrimple minded]

Hi aotf,

 

Your pH, TDS, KH, and GH are all above "recommended" ranges for cards.  The pH swing and the fact the shrimp are imported (and could slow die-off) could also be contributing factors.  

 

I haven't tried to acclimate and keep cards in neo water, so I can't give experiences in your ranges.    Can I ask what substrate you are using?

[aotf]

Hey Shrimple,

 

TDS and gH are easy to fix, just a question of water changes (I did them blindly for a bit without checking parameters).

My substrate is inert with some Controsoil in the canister filter but I have some seiryu in the tank. I epoxied it to seal it off and prevent it messing with my kH although I suspect it might still be leeching. Either that or there's just leftover carbonates from before I epoxied the stones (long story). If it's the latter, I should see pH and kH drop slowly with every water change (I do 10-20% every two weeks or so, which is why I'm not sure if the carbonates are leeching or just leftover).

Not sure what I could do about the swing, the tank is not heavily planted and there's no CO2 going on and off.

 

What strikes me as odd is that I'm only slightly above the vendor's range, I just don't know if I'm above by enough to explain the deaths (TDS 120-180, pH 6.1-6.6, gH 5-6, kH 0). I'm definitely going to try to get back in range, just have to do more WCs.

[ILikeAsianBooty]

Try droping tds to 150? I honestly think thats the problem, but you could also try pH to stable 6.6 in a cup or something..gH to atleast 5, kH to 0-1..2 max and uhh, I'd honestly switch to a shrimp friendly fert tbh..I stopped dosing CO2/ferts in my neo tank and they seem alot happier, even though I have a reg sitting around collecting dust.

 

Could also be the w/c, I did a 13% w/c in my cube..matched the parameters, but it was infused too rapidly and one of my zebras died instantly  other than that, no further deaths so far (knock on wood). What I learned is to do a smaller % of w/c next time.

 

Also, using RO/DI?  I would think yes with control. What remineralizer? I recommend a liquid remin!

 

 

[aotf]

I can pick up ThriveS to see if it makes a difference. There are Tangerine Tigers and neos breeding with Thrive in other tanks but I don't know yet just how sensitive the TBs are.

I also have a reg sitting around. It's even attached to a mostly full 40lb CO2 canister. Talk about a waste of space...

I usually do ~10% WC, just 20% if I slack off for a couple weeks. I don't drip it in (I know, bad) because there's nowhere I could sit the water jug higher than the tank. The deaths don't happen immediately after WCs but that doesn't say much.

Yes to RO/DI, remineralizing with SS GH. I used Blue Wizard for a little while but I don't mind dissolving SS GH and it ends up being cheaper in the long run.

[wyzazz]

You need to drop the pH and KH and will likely need more buffering soil to keep it stable.  Having any KH in the tank will make the soil run out much more quickly.  If you're running soil in  your canister filter you might want to just try loading it up with some Akadama, it drops pH lower than any other substrate I've ever used next to Controsoil.  Season the Akadama in a bucket first after rinsing it very well, that stuff is crazy cloudy, because it tends to suck up minerals for a few days until it stabilizes.

[chappy6107]

later tonight when I get home I will post a pic of how I drip my water into my tanks.

 

 

[wyzazz]

24 minutes ago, chappy6107 said:

later tonight when I get home I will post a pic of how I drip my water into my tanks.

 

 

I use a dosing pump or an aqua-lifter pump.  Works like a charm!

[chappy6107]

9 minutes ago, wyzazz said:

I use a dosing pump or an aqua-lifter pump.  Works like a charm!

 

does it hurt the pump if it runs dry?

[wyzazz]

Nope!

[chappy6107]

that is my problem.  I set it and forget it till several hours later.

[aotf]

 

I just found a dead berried Bloody Mary in the tank this morning. Of course, these parameters aren't ideal for neos either so I don't know if that tells me anything. A little bit of a bummer, though. The female BMs in this tank seem to berry and then die a week later.

 

2 hours ago, wyzazz said:

You need to drop the pH and KH and will likely need more buffering soil to keep it stable.  Having any KH in the tank will make the soil run out much more quickly.  If you're running soil in  your canister filter you might want to just try loading it up with some Akadama, it drops pH lower than any other substrate I've ever used next to Controsoil.  Season the Akadama in a bucket first after rinsing it very well, that stuff is crazy cloudy, because it tends to suck up minerals for a few days until it stabilizes.

 

What's weird to me is that I'm not adding carbonates to the tank but they seem to just stick around kH 2. I would have imagined the Controsoil would have brought that down. Either my Controsoil isn't buffering very much at all and I'm dealing with leftovers or there's some equilibrium between the Controsoil and leeching rock. My past experience with buffering substrate has been that if there's any kH to the water before it gets in the tank, the substrate takes care of that pronto (but that was ADA) so I'm a little confused. I doubt it's been burnt out already since I have never added carbonates to the tank since putting in the substrate.

I'll look into Akadama, I just happened to have a 40lb bag of Controsoil laying around. The next option is to rip everything up, replace my rocks, and swap the substrate out for the Controsoil I already have (...but I'm hoping I don't have to do that).

 

1 hour ago, chappy6107 said:

later tonight when I get home I will post a pic of how I drip my water into my tanks.

 

 

 

Awesome, I'd like to see that.
I have a couple lift pumps but the flow rate is way too high for dripping and the inflow side is such that I can't easily limit the water that goes in (I'd rather limit inflow than outflow since pressure buildup in outflow couplings spooks me).

[chappy6107]

21 minutes ago, aotf said:

 

 

 

The next option is to rip everything up, replace my rocks, and swap the substrate out for the Controsoil I already have (...but I'm hoping I don't have to do that).

 

 

Awesome, I'd like to see that.
 

I also have designed a little mesh basket to hold a small amount of substrate for people to not have to tear their tanks up to put new substrate down.  black in color.  can be custom made to size.

[ILikeAsianBooty]

If you want a true bee tank, throw in 2inches in that tank and relocate the neos if possible.

[Shrimple minded]

If you are using Controsoil and SS GH+, and not adding any KH, yet still getting KH readings in the 2s, I would reconsider the rocks (barring any other sources).

[aotf]

8 hours ago, ILikeAsianBooty said:

If you want a true bee tank, throw in 2inches in that tank and relocate the neos if possible.

 

Yeah, the neos are just in there because my Blue Dreams throw Bloody Mary culls and I figured I'd try breeding them out (rather than dump them in a skittles tank). The only reason I didn't put all Controsoil in there is because I didn't want to deal with swapping out substrate when it stops being able to buffer. That may have been a mistake.

 

6 hours ago, Shrimple minded said:

If you are using Controsoil and SS GH+, and not adding any KH, yet still getting KH readings in the 2s, I would reconsider the rocks (barring any other sources).

 

Agreed, I'm going to have to do some testing. This might be an excuse to get some pa hai (so expensive though...). My epoxy seems not to have been thorough enough.

[TheShrimpBrothers.]

Coming in late here, but I second the Akadama if you can get your hands on some. Traditionally used as soil for Bonsai, it will lower your Ph considerably. However pinpointing the source of the KH is going to be important. Maybe take out some rocks and test in a bucket or something over a few days to see if they are in fact leeching?

[chappy6107]

On 4/25/2018 at 11:03 AM, aotf said:

 

Awesome, I'd like to see that.

 

here is how I drip my water into the tanks.

 

 

 

 

here is the mesh basket to hold substrate.

 

 

[aotf]

 

Thanks all for your advice, you've made me look at the tank with fresh eyes. Because I had epoxied my seiryu, I figured I was safe from the carbonates leeching off of it and so blissfully attributed the persistently high kH and pH to just... *shrug* whatever and stuff. The issue seems to have been caused by the rocks leeching (I couldn't get 100% coverage because of cracks) so I'm on to a rescape. Such is life! I'm still considering whether I should replace the substrate although once I get inert rocks, I suspect the Controsoil in the canister + inert substrate should be fine.

Anyone know where I can get blue petrified wood or pa hai at a decent price in SF? AFA carries pa hai but wants the skin off my back as payment.

 

10 hours ago, TheShrimpBrothers. said:

Coming in late here, but I second the Akadama if you can get your hands on some. Traditionally used as soil for Bonsai, it will lower your Ph considerably. However pinpointing the source of the KH is going to be important. Maybe take out some rocks and test in a bucket or something over a few days to see if they are in fact leeching?

 

I didn't want to yank out stones from the get-go and disturb the shrimp/substrate so instead I took some of the tank water and put it in a jar with a small amount of Controsoil. 12 hours later, the pH had dropped from 7.2 to 6.2. So it really does seem like something in my tank is pulling up the kH. I'll at least test my substrate (...it's volcanic gravel as far as I know) but it's really looking like it's the rocks.

 

8 hours ago, chappy6107 said:

 

here is how I drip my water into the tanks.

 

here is the mesh basket to hold substrate.

 

Can't believe that hadn't occurred to me, I have two of those boxes. Unfortunately, they're both installed with shrimp in them (I used them as temporary holding tanks for culls), but I can easily adapt the idea to another receptacle. The idea of putting a gallon of water resting on the edge of my tank makes me nervous but I suppose those things support much more than that on a day-to-day basis.

The mesh idea is super cool. I've used up all my tank rim real-estate (with the other breeder boxes + lights + tubing) but that seems like it would work really well.

 

[wyzazz]

Tom's Aqua Lifter Pump is the way to go.  Just put an airline valve on the output of the airline tubing and put the other end into your bucket.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aqua-Lifter-Aqualifter-Pump-by-Toms-Aquatics-AW-20-Drip-Dose/352292412976?epid=23011034919&hash=item5206439e30:g:QKQAAOSwu~FalYeP

 

Because I have so many tanks I usually use a 5gal bucket and my 4-head Jeabo Dosing Pump.  Same principal but I can do more tanks at once.  I'm seriously thinking of picking up the slave module for it to half the time it takes me to change water.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JEBAO-DP-4-AUTO-DOSING-PUMP-SALTWATER-AQUARIUM-REEF-4-CHANNEL-V2/382435177614?epid=1440681069&hash=item590ae9b48e:g:AZoAAOSwjL5ZHRPa

[chappy6107]

11 hours ago, aotf said:

 

Can't believe that hadn't occurred to me, I have two of those boxes. Unfortunately, they're both installed with shrimp in them (I used them as temporary holding tanks for culls), but I can easily adapt the idea to another receptacle. The idea of putting a gallon of water resting on the edge of my tank makes me nervous but I suppose those things support much more than that on a day-to-day basis.
 

 

I have done this for years without any problems.

 

I do see the benefit of using a aqua lifter or dosing pump as @wyzazz has mentioned.  I never tried because I thought I would burn up the pump when I let it run dry, but apparently they work just fine after running dry.

[wyzazz]

5 minutes ago, chappy6107 said:

 

I have done this for years without any problems.

 

I do see the benefit of using a aqua lifter or dosing pump as @wyzazz has mentioned.  I never tried because I thought I would burn up the pump when I let it run dry, but apparently they work just fine after running dry.

 

They aren't regular pumps with propellers in them, the Aqua Lifter is a diaphragm pump (similar to most air pumps used in the hobby) and the dosing pumps are peristaltic.  They are both made to run dry and can prime themselves without an issue.  I use them as mentioned above and also use much larger versions for Beer/Winemaking.  

[aotf]

Another dead bee this morning, I was originally going to wait until this weekend to pull everything out and add new rocks (so I only traumatize everyone in the tank once) but just yanked them all out before going to work. We'll see how the kH/pH are faring later tonight. If it's still bad, I'll just replace the Controsoil in the filter since it might be burnt out. Fingers crossed.

 

 

10 hours ago, wyzazz said:

 

They aren't regular pumps with propellers in them, the Aqua Lifter is a diaphragm pump (similar to most air pumps used in the hobby) and the dosing pumps are peristaltic.  They are both made to run dry and can prime themselves without an issue.  I use them as mentioned above and also use much larger versions for Beer/Winemaking.  

 

I've had that pump in my Amazon cart for several months now, good to know it's a worthwhile buy.
I also got the Marina boxes on your recommendation, they're working well (although I did pop in an underwater pump because the airlift was so terrible).

[aotf]

I decided to be a bit more thorough in my testing and -surprise surprise- it looks like my substrate was the culprit all along. Really frustrating since it's crushed red volcanic rock, which I was sure would be inert. Shame on me for not testing it before using it, I suppose.

 

The tests:

tank water + fresh Controsoil overnight => pH 6.2, kH 0

took rocks out of tank + sock full of Controsoil in tank overnight => no change in anything except sH = 1 (sock content of water)
RODI + fresh "inert" substrate 4 hours => pH 6.8, kH 1 (from pH 6, kH 0)

 

At that point, I concluded the substrate was to blame and decided on what I had to do.

A good part of yesterday was spent ripping out the entire tank, swapping the gravel for Controsoil and rescaping/replanting everything. Can't say my back was too pleased with it all but I got it done and moved the shrimp back in. It looks like I may have lost one or two in the process (the pH dropped from 6.8-7 to 6.2 in a couple hours) but I'm hoping this is for the better. I got a tally of my bees while moving them and of the 26 I originally received, only 14 remained. Oof.

 

I'll post a pic in the next photoperiod.

Thanks again for making me look for the cause (rather than try to convince myself everything was ok)!