For Jaime (Ravensgate)

[Merth]

 

[OblongShrimp]

what is that she appears to be dragging?

[Merth]

Piece of moss between her and camera

[OblongShrimp]

oh ok.  I saw when I looked in the gallary that this picture was labeled as a tibee is that accurate?  F1?

[Soothing Shrimp]

It does look like a pseudo TiB (TT x CBS)

[Merth]

They are some of Jaime's so she is going to have to clarify the crossing i cant remember

[ravensgate]

I'm so jealous!!!!!!  YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYY!  Those are tibee (super tiger x bumblebee) F3 generation.  WOOHOO!!!!  You have GOT to keep me posted.  My girls still aren't berried, they are saddling up....dagnabbit, I think they are torturing me.  LOL!  CONGRATS Robert!

[OblongShrimp]

you have bumblebee shrimp?

[ravensgate]

No I don't.  The parent stock of the shrimp Merth is showing are F3s that I got from msjinksd/Rachel.  She had the bumblebees and super tigers originally.  It's always confusing because when I started my journal  on TPT on the original group of tibees I got Rachel came over and said they were F3s.  But I don't know if she was commenting on the adults she had sold me or their babies as the comment came after they had had their clutches.  So at minimum Merth, you have F3 in that adult.  At best she's an F4:)

[Tanman19az]

It seems like F2 to me...however it's a tough thing to keep track of

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[Merth]

What is the significance of the generation?

[ravensgate]

They are either F3 or F4.  I trust Rachel to keep track of them since she bred them.  What Merth has are my babies, they can't be F2 if they came out of F2/F3   HOWEVER, that also depends on if the F term is used correctly (by Rachel).  If they were just left alone in the tank to breed with each other, the priori bumble bees or the super tigers then yeah, no way of knowing.  However, all the adults I purchased looked similar and were VERY blue.  This generation lacks the vibrant blue the adults had.  Which sorta sucks. 

 

Stealing this from TPT

 

P = Parent Generation (Sometimes referred to as Purebred Generation)
F1 = The offsprings of the above generation
F2 = The offsprings of the above generation
and so on... pretty much a labeling guide on the generations.

 

And stealing this as SoothingShrimp's reply on TPT

 

Therefore often shrimpers use the F#s VERY loosely to guesstimate how many generations have been bred and raised to adulthood. *shrugs* To have a new tank for every shrimp generation would be very very costly.

 

It seems like F2 to me...however it's a tough thing to keep track of


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[Tanman19az]

I'm just going off the looks not getting technical

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[ravensgate]

  I was stating they are not F2s though, doesn't matter what they 'look' like.  The further explanation of the generations was to answer Merth's question.  To me when you use the terms F2, F3, P1, etc, those are technical terms.  Just a difference of opinion I suppose;)

[Merth]

  I was stating they are not F2s though, doesn't matter what they 'look' like.  The further explanation of the generations was to answer Merth's question.  To me when you use the terms F2, F3, P1, etc, those are technical terms.  Just a difference of opinion I suppose;)

Yep I was aware of the meaning behind the generations and I think Rachel once posted that she considers them the same way you listed it. My question was more to the point of does it really matter what F# they are? Is there an expectation of breeding results, hardiness, loss of quality as the generations continue? I know through selective breeding traits can be defined and eventually breed true in successive generations, but does it really matter in general terms? Or are we just looking at the possibility of unique characteristics which possibly can be bred into a new line and understanding the lineage it took to get there?

[ravensgate]

From my point of view it's more important for documentation purposes if you are are wanting to do selective breeding.  There is a lot of infertility in tibees because of the haphazard crossing a lot of breeders do.  Heck, even focused Tibee breeders like Monika Poehler (sp?) have problems with hitting sterile shrimp several generations out. Some crosses just don't work but tracking 'where it all went wrong' is easier if you know where you are at generation/cross wise.  My whole goal is strain development with tibees so for my notes/journals I like to document what F# I'm at.  So if a problem occurs I can document where it occurred in the line.  But for general use I don't really see that the terms mean much.  I document everything in my tanks, from berry dates, hatch dates, new shrimp added, what they look like once they settle, any changes noted with parameter shifts, etc. 

 

And Tanner, I apologize if my response came off as abrasive.  When I said what generation they were and you said they looked like a different generation I felt like you were stating I was wrong somehow or worse, lying, and yes, I got defensive.  My apologies for getting that way...jumping the gun on my part.

 

When using terms like F2, F3, etc especially with Tibees I don't feel there is a 'look' to them since each cross can vary wildly even when it comes down to the sexes.  As in, a female CRS x Male OEBT can result in different appearing offspring than a male CRS x female OEBT.  This is why a lot of people don't fool with them, the possibilities are rather endless and it requires a lot of time, tanks and culling to get anything 'developed'.  Only a handful of folks do anything with them and most are overseas. Heck, out of the batches of Tibees I've raised so far I've had for example, a batch of 30 babies....all look fairly similar in striping and then 2 out of the batch look COMPLETELY different (I document my batches photo wise as well).  So if you were going by what you think a generation 'looks' like then the whole batch would have been F2 except those two babies which would have been F3.  See what I'm saying?  Furthermore they will look different in different environments.  That little lady Merth posted did not look like that when she left and none of my tibees look like that currently in my tank

 

After dinner I'll post some photos:)

[ravensgate]

Parents (F3) (yes, they are as blue as the OEBT but no OEBT in their lineage)

 

 

 

F3 adult with some 2 month old babies

 

 

Babies at 4 months

 

One of the super cool babies from a batch (one of two that look like this, the other is below)

 

 

 

 

And what the babies look like as juvies and subadults at 6 months old (all the black/blue ones...the red/orange ones are Tangerine Tiger hybrids which are not considered tibees).  Pretty much all of them lost any of their white striping they had as youngsters.  Some have blue-ish tissue, some don't.  No two completely alike though:)  All of my tibees came from 3 berried F3 females that arrived berried.  New additions like the TT hybrids and more tibees from Tanman are in there, but no breeding currently:)

 

[Merth]

Yes quite a difference in appearance of them. The one I posted actually looks alot different in person as well. She has much more brown to her and as you can see from the CRS next to her that the pic is pretty washed out from the flash. She has quite a bit of white to the shell as well. I actually had to look twice to see if she was the tibee or the CBS. I can tell the difference by the amount of brown on her.One of my other ones has a nice blue color to the head area but thats it. Oh and she got alot browner and whiter when I started mixing borneo wild color in the diet. As far as the mix go she could have the possibility of being mixed with tibee, crs,or cbs or even chocolate neo (if that can even occur, I think I read it is possible in tibees). 

[Soothing Shrimp]

For some reason the pics are not coming through for me.

[Merth]

Mine looks like she is only carrying like 6 or 8 eggs is that normal? Maybe since it is her first batch? Im used to seeing the neo's full to bursting.

[ravensgate]

For some reason the pics are not coming through for me.

DOH!  Hubby switched our servers over last night, hang tight!  Ok, they should work now.

 

  Merth, she looks small, probably why she's only carrying a few.  These things get HUGE because of the cross, they are easily twice the size of CRS/OEBT.  None of mine are completely as big as the adults yet.  So it could be she's not big enough yet or just first time jitters:)  When fully grown I've seen the females carry 40-50.  I've got a saddled female right now in the project tank that her swimmeretts are so long and her belly has dropped so much if she carries less than 35 her first time I'll be shocked.