Parameter Questions

[Axelrod12]

My 20L has been cycled for about a month and a half now with just 3 ottos living in it and feasting on the massive amount of diatoms. I'm now looking into ordering some shrimp for the tank. I'm stuck between OEBT and BTOE which from what I understand the BTOE are just a darker color variant of the OEBT?

 

So first, my parameters:

ph - 7.0-7.2

kh - 3-4

gh - 3

 

Sorry for the variance, I'm a little color blind so I actually struggle with these 3 tests more than any others. I don't know my TDS yet. My old meter is busted and I have a new one in the mail, set to be here Saturday. 

 

Now the questions:

 

I've seen some variance on what parameters these shrimp should be kept in anything from ph of 6.5-7.8, kh 1-8 and gh 2-10. Could anyone narrow this down some for me? I know these shrimp can be sensitive so I would really like to do what I can to get them in ideal parameters. 

 

My plan is to do top offs with Distilled water from the grocery store. Water changes from the tap. I was also thinking that I could raise my gh with that salty shrimp gh+ product if necessary. This only effects gh not kh right?

 

In a month or two I'm planning on purchasing a RO/DI unit. How could I convert the water in the tank at that point over to remineralized RO without stressing the shrimp? Would I have to remove them and reacclimate them with a drip or could I slowly convert the water parameters over with water changes or something? I haven't really thought about the technicalities of this much since its down the line a little. 

[MABJ]

Keep it towards 7.0 and you're golden.

 

6.5-7.2 is the tiger threshold on ph.

 

You should just start doing 10% water changes in RO water. If you go to walmart, the green cap water is RO water. Start doing it, and have it done before you get the shrimp.

 

Your KH should be 0-1. 

 

Your GH should be about 10 if I recall correctly.

 

For higher grade tigers, keep the TDS lower. Around 175-200. Medium grade to lower grade probably could go a little higher.

 

You definitely will need to use a GH+ product. I recommend Shirakura Ca+.

 

LMK if you have any more questions I forgot to answer.

[myklt8]

All my parameters are where I want them...except GH is low

is there a way to raise it without affecting TDS?

I remineralize with Mosura Ultra

[Axelrod12]

Keep it towards 7.0 and you're golden.

 

6.5-7.2 is the tiger threshold on ph.

 

You should just start doing 10% water changes in RO water. If you go to walmart, the green cap water is RO water. Start doing it, and have it done before you get the shrimp.

 

Your KH should be 0-1. 

 

Your GH should be about 10 if I recall correctly.

 

For higher grade tigers, keep the TDS lower. Around 175-200. Medium grade to lower grade probably could go a little higher.

 

You definitely will need to use a GH+ product. I recommend Shirakura Ca+.

 

LMK if you have any more questions I forgot to answer.

 

 

Thats a lot of RO water to buy consistently from walmart. After hardscape and substrate there's still probably 15-17 gallons in the tank. Plus weekly water changes. I was hoping to avoid buying RO just to fill the tank with and just switch over to full RO when I get the unit. How necessary do you really think it is? And if I do go that route why only 10% changes? Is there a negative side to say doing 50% changes?

 

I ordered Fluval Shrimp Minerals which will be here on saturday. I was told that tigers liked the TDS a little higher than Crystals and that this product is a bit dirtier than the salty shrimp or shirakura. I also have some BTOE which will be shipped on Saturday. That gives me Saturday night, Sunday, and at least most of Monday to make any changes I need to. USPS delivers here in the afternoon. I would have waited longer for the shrimp but with the weather getting colder it didn't look like I would get another chance to have them shipped. 

 

Am I correct in assuming that with only Fluval Shrimp Minerals and RO water the Kh would be 0? This is ok right? I've always tried to understand the relationship between kh and ph but it tends to elude me. Can't ph be unstable with 0 kh?

 

The shrimp are coming from these parameters:

PH 7.0-7.4

GH 6-7

KH 1-2

TDS 225-275

[MABJ]

Have you kept shrimp before?

You need to match those params before they come. And I'll try to help you.

Yes. You need RO water. If you're buying $40+ dollar shrimp orders, why risk them in poor water, when you could just buy $15 of water to make them happy.

You've got to rationale that out to yourself. Be willing to do anything you need to do.

Next, drastic fluctuations are terrible for any animal.

Think about trying to breathe 2 miles higher than you are now with five minutes to adjust. You'd probably die.

So I'm also thinking about your Ottos.

RO water will have 0/0/0 across the board. That's the great thing. Your remineralizing will put it where it needs to be.

I suggest several 25% water changes. One per day, with the remineralized RO water before you get your shrimp here.

What questions do you have left? And I hope you realize I'm not being rude, I just want your animals to have the best chance of survival.

[Axelrod12]

I've kept and bred RCS and CRS.

 

Haha I wish they were only $40, but fair enough I see your point.  

 

The otos are going back in the 29g before the shrimp get here. They were in there more to help eat some diatoms and to keep the cycle established without me needing to add drops of ammonia everyday. If needed I can move them tomorrow and change to RO easier.

 

I'm not taking anything as rude. While I've kept shrimp before I certainly don't consider myself an expert by any means. Maybe slightly informed at best haha. So I could use and appreciate any help I get. One thing that confuses me the most is the range of parameters and answers I get from people. 

 

Also could you clarify the kh/ph relation a bit. You don't necessarily have to explain the science behind it. Just telling my my ph won't crash with remineralized RO would make me feel better lol. 

 

Here's my thread from TPT in case you want to see where some of the confusion may come from. That second post has different parameter suggestions:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=485121&highlight=

[Soothing Shrimp]

Parameters IMO are pretty good, just needs bumped a bit.  Here's a wide guideline:

 

PH: 7.0 – 7.4, KH: 4 – 8, GH: 6 – 10, TDS: 100 – 180

 

Having no kh will cause your ph to swing.  CRS can't handle kh, Tigers can.

 

Mineralplus, replenish, and fluval can all raise gh- but do affect TDS as well. 

 

I use RO, but I like the clean slate to work with.  Salty Shrimp is a great remineralizer that will take care of all your concerns in one swoop. 

[MABJ]

Parameters IMO are pretty good, just needs bumped a bit. Here's a wide guideline:

PH: 7.0 – 7.4, KH: 4 – 8, GH: 6 – 10, TDS: 100 – 180, Water temp: 18 – 23

Having no kh will cause your ph to swing. CRS can't handle kh, Tigers can.

Mineralplus, replenish, and fluval can all raise gh- but do affect TDS as well.

I use RO, but I like the clean slate to work with. Salty Shrimp is a great remineralizer that will take care of all your concerns in one swoop. And it comes in just gh or gh/kh.

And when Bryce comes in I know I can tag out

I'm no expert either, believe me. But I've seen lots of experts give this advice, so I try to keep it all in my head so others can know.

I hate the KH relation too when you talk about CRS. I wish you could just press a button and have your water programmed ideally.

[Soothing Shrimp]

BTW here is where I get mine from: http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/bee-shrimp-mineral-gh-1-000-grams/

[Soothing Shrimp]

And when Bryce comes in I know I can tag out

 

LOL  We can use all the points of view we can get, my friend.

 

"I wish you could just press a button and have your water programmed ideally."

 

And short of having thousands of dollars of equipment, we have to do it by hand. UGH! heh

[MABJ]

Even with thousands of dollars of equipment, I doubt you could just say, "Jives, please set water parameters to 70°, 7.0 PH, 6gh and 2kh. Thank you."

Lol I'd pay 10grand for that system and not blink

[Axelrod12]

Ok, So I guess I'm mostly confused with kh now. First, APB seems to be sold out of mineral plus so I don't see any way I can get it here before the shrimp. I'm going to have to stick with the fluval product for now. 

 

Now my confusion. Kh 0 will cause ph swings. Tigers can tolerate more kh and I've often seen it advised that it should be at least a couple degrees. However, these remineralizing products claim to have none to negligible effects on kh. So how can I raise the kh to an acceptable level for the BTOE and so my ph won't crash if these products don't effect it?

 

 

 

EDIT: Oops, just noticed that last line of that post. Didn't realize there was a kh/gh product as well. Would this be my solution? I found it here:

http://www.theshrimptank.com/water-conditioners/saltyshrimp-shrimp-mineral-gh-kh/

 

It says .5 kh to 1 gh. So I could get a gh of 8 with a kh of 4? 

 

Even still though I'm worried I won't get it here until the day the shrimp arrive. The fastest shipping option is priority. I don't know if this will give me enough time to get the water ready? The fluval will be here tomorrow. Any recommendations for a course of action?

[Axelrod12]

My tds meter got here a day early. And I don't know if it needs to be calibrated but my tds was around 350. I checked my fluval spec and it was only 175. Will ferts raise tds. Ive been dosing the 20l up until yesterday.

Although I don't know if it matters much since I'll definitely be using RO at this point.

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[Soothing Shrimp]

As long as your ph and TDS are in the ballpark, they won't die from kh/gh water in just a couple days.  It takes time to affect them and usually affects molting.

 

BTW, the http://www.theshrimptank.com/water-conditioners/saltyshrimp-shrimp-mineral-gh-kh/ product looks good.  I haven't had a chance to try it yet though.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Ferts and shrimp usually don't mix.  Many more horror stories than good outcomes, but more power to ya in whatever you decide to do.

 

Since I don't to ferts, my only guess would be yes it would raise TDS.

[Axelrod12]

Yup I stopped yesterday because of the bad things I've heard. From what I read OEBT and BTOE are real sensitive so I don't want to have much as far as parameter swings. Do you think I could get away with the fluval. Or should I start with it and slowly switch over to the bee kh/gh. Say 10% water changes with it every week. Maybe slightly more often.

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[Soothing Shrimp]

Well, let's look at it this way.  Fluval is what you have on hand.

 

Can't use what you don't have...

[Axelrod12]

Ok I'll plan on switching over time then. 0 kh shouldn't have any negative effects as long as I acclimate them slowly? Which I'm kind of obsessive about, my drip acclimations usually take me at least a few hours at less than 1 drop per second lol.

They are only coming from kh of 1-2. So I'll aim for the same gh that they are coming from and worry about slowly raising the kh once I get a different product. Seem like a good plan?

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[Soothing Shrimp]

Sounds like a plan to me.  Just switch them over when you have the new product.

[OblongShrimp]

I have both the moderate mineral plus and salty shrimp products for sale (theshrimptank.com) and with shipping I believe they are cheaper then alpha pro aquatics. The only problem is I am out of town this week so I won't be shipping until next Saturday.

I think if you continue using what you are now and then acclimate your new shrimp slowly you should be OK and then slowly switch over later like soothing suggests.

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[Axelrod12]

I moved the otos back to the 29g today and switched over to RO water. Using the fluval shrimp minerals I bumped the 0TDS RO up to a gh of 6. It took around 7ml for every 4 gallons of water. This gave me a TDS right around 193. I'm wondering if this is too high? Should I maybe drop the gh to 5?

[MABJ]

That looks pretty good to me. How bout you, Bryce?

[Soothing Shrimp]

Looks pretty good. Salty will drop your TDS some so you'll be in a better range for "playroom."  So, I'd say fine for now.

[Axelrod12]

Ok cool. I think i'm gonna order the bee shrimp gh/kh later this week so oblong can ship when he's back.

One other thing I thought of. Will my dirted substrate leech anything that will alter my kh/gh/tds at all.

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[Soothing Shrimp]

Others will have to answer that one, as I don't use it.

 

However if your TDS does rise, it is likely to have inorganic ingredients leeching out.  Here's a neat little link for ya: http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/articles/news/adas-substrate-article-characteristics-substrate-materials-unperceivable-just-their-ap