Blue diamond neocaridina

[Kat]

Hello!  I'm new to this forum and don't know very much about shrimp genetics yet.  Presently, I have a 5g heavily planted that has been in operation for at least 4 years, so it's very stable. 

 

In the tank,  I had blue pearl shrimp, added blue diamond and velvet shrimp (and a couple of shrimp that were a mix of blue type shrimp, I believe they were a mix of blue dream, carbon rili and blue velvet).

 

Edit: Right there, I now realize I've messed up,  I mixed chocolates and rili?

Anyway,

 

The shrimplets produced were mostly stripy blue diamond looking and some clear/white in the center like carbon rili.  

 

EDIT: I also got some other type shrimplets like a nice blue with red starting (which I've segregated for another project now lol.)

 

I was aiming for a bright blue body with some darker blue stripes.  I love the vibrant blue types  (but now realize I'm going to have to start all over again).

 

Does what I'm saying make sense for the type of shrimplets I'm seeing maybe?

 

Which genes should I add to hopefully get a blue-bodied type shrimp? 

Blue dream? 

 

I hope those questions make enough sense and thanks in advance!

Edited July 15, 2016 by Kat
I read some more info

[Kat]

An example of one of the shrimplets I'm very proud of.   And another pic of what I am seeing mostly,  the dark blue stripy shrimp or carbon rili?  Looking closer, there are some dark greenish blue shrimplets too.  I have no idea where that came from?  Maybe blue pearls? 

 

I'm going to try and get better pics, but there's two shrimp types, that I'm gonna have to segregate like mad.  If I have to start over,  it's not the worse thing in the world,  since I want to start up my 8g for this project and switch to a white sand substrate!  I have a feeling the shrimp will stay darker blue and look better on a light substrate.  

 

Any direction on where to go would be appreciated. 

[Kat]

Pic 1- She's neat!  Shrimp ID Pls????  And is she berried???  Mostly likely they will be wild-right? 

 

Pic 2- A bunch of the shrimp eating.  The substrate is horrible.  They disguise right into it, especially the blue and clear/white ones. 

 

Additional info: I very recently bought three low quality blue diamond shrimp and put them in this 5g.  I'm thinking I'm gonna have to catch them propto and put them into my dark blue/blond tank.  One of the new shrimp is brown!  Another has brown bands (stripes).  I thought it was stressed,  but it's still brown!  I don't want that in the gene pool right? 

[Kat]

Here's another pic of shrimp types to segregate eating.  I hope this represents most of them. 

 

The second pic is of one of my favorite shrimp (purchsed, not bred) and that blue diamond with chocolate bars.

[Kat]

And then the three new poor quality blue diamonds that I am adding to another tank.  You can see the chocolate legs,  and chocolate stripe down the back?

Any comments? 

[ohmiko]

Neat!!! I really like the berried shrimp! Also the blue carbon rili shrimp is so cool! I don't know about gene pool breeding for shrimp either besides what people told me saying they turn wild. But I think with the same color, it's okay??? I talk to a lot of different shrimp breeders and they all tell me different stories due to experience. In my experience, I had a sakura shrimp that was berried and i bought it from my LFS and the offsprings were all kinds of variations. There's some wild looking/clear babies, some with darker markings, and some that are almost completely dark brown/black. I dont think any are red but I guess it's too soon to tell. So your variations are looking pretty great! I also know it's tricky buying blue dream because some people feed color enhancing foods to chocolates, rilis, velvets, and it appears to be blue dream for a good 3 months and then it reverts. Chocolate does however produce some blue dreams. But yes if you wish to continue a line of blue bodies/dream just cull out the brown shrimps or lower qualities. Keep it strong and cull. Your culls might even produce some really cool variants as your selective breeding continues

[Mr. F]

The color doesn't mean same lineage. And let's get this blue thing straight!

-Blue diamond are indeed from chocolate

-Blue dream and blue/Carbon rili are both from carbon

-blue velvet, believe it or not, are from red cherry. So there's where the red came from.

I've had lots of "mixed" tanks and I can say you don't always get wild type. Sometimes the genes overlap just right and you have colorful shrimp for generations. With that being said, that's definitely the exception to the normal situation.

As for your blue bodied blue rilis, I was attempting something similar a while back. I started with 12 clear and blue or black carbon rilis. After a while, I noticed them getting bluer but not in the clear portion. When I was at about 45 shrimps, I added 15 of what I call "blue dream rilis," Meaning the dark blue pigment hadn't been totally faded away, leaving small spots and interesting tail patterns, but the rest of the shrimps' bodies were a brilliant light blue. Now after about 4 months, 3 clutches, and a moderate amount of culling (only those showing grey, brown, and/or black removed) I have a nice mix of blue bodies rilis and even some blue dreams.

[Kat]

Thank you ohmiko for the compliments and encouragement!  That shrimp we both really like isn't berried though :( Lol, it just looked that way on the pic with the gravel stone and wishful thinking!  But I do love her, and am curious of what her genetics might be.....

 

So yes!  My shrimp are already mutants.  I have no idea what is in the tank at the moment,  speaking about genetic and I keep pulling more and more out!   Plan A was to just buy blue shrimp every now and then to replenish genes and see what pops out,  now,  I want to try and control/guess what types of shrimp are produced.   

 

And yes,  I'm having fun watching what pops up in two other tanks which where my attempts at segregating, and the culls  (blonds, mostly clear/white with hints of dark blue markings in a 10g and am attempt at getting red rili with a blue body in another 5g, but that one needs work too AND is a whole new topic lol).

 

From my understanding,  and I hope I don't confuse this, I think you might not see any red in your shrimplets if you didn't add blue velvet.  But who knows what genes your berried shrimp from the LFS was exposed to, I guess-right? 

I'm not sure what a sakura shrimp is though  If it's close to blue diamond,  I  have found similar offspring types from my blue diamonds.  They are neat too!

 

This is so much fun, I really can't wait for shrimplets again once I get this 'genetics' thing! 

 

[Kat]

Hi Mr. F and thanks for the organized clarification on gene lineage.

 

The type you call "blue dream rili", the 15 shrimp that you added to your blue carbon rili line,  are the exact type I was aiming to keep.

 

To get that,  I think I'll have to mix blue carbon rili with blue dream.  I think I might have a couple that are already a mix of the two.  Mixing with the other phenotypes will produce a certain amount of wild-type shrimp, but may overlap sometimes as well, I suppose, we shall see....there will be some mad segregating going on in that tank for a long time!

 

Since I already have a ton of genes in the 5g, I'm going to TRY and seperate the blue velvets and anything with red, the blue diamonds especially if they show any hints of brown,  and keep the carbon rili/and what I'm hoping is blue dream genes in the 5g shown the pics. 

 

And just to add for random info (that I've heard/learned from my trusty LFS shrimp guy):

 

The darker the blue, the higher the genetics.  Meaning, the shrimplets will lighten up or brighten up over time.  It's what I understood from him,  not sure of what lineage he was taking about in particular,  but it might explain why you're almost blue/black carbon rilis 'blued' up in the coloured rili sections?  

 

He also told me,  at least,  I understood that blue (dreams, I think!)  are shrimp whose shell colour is blue,  whereas blue velvet (I think!), the shrimp itself is blue and shell transparent.  Idk if this is talked about, but would like to know if I got that right......

 

***

Thank you both for sharing your experiences working with blue shrimp!

Someone needs to invent  a shrimp genetics calculator!  Everything shrimp genetics seems so secretive! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kat]

Oh and one more question,  where do blue pearl shrimp fit in?  

 

My guess is that they are similar to blue velvet, but not as vibrant a blue, (so maybe a step down) because although I did add blue velvet at one point,  my blue pearls were already just starting to show hints of red.  The offspring from that combo was a bluer shrimp and some with red patterning.  

 

(I compromised this when I added blue diamond.   But I'm seperating them again and I can restart with the three different lineages)

[ohmiko]

BLue line is so confusing  so many.... different.... blues..... where do blue jellies come from

[Mr. F]

Blue pearl are Neocaridina palmata. Very similar, but different species. They will FORSURE give you brown shrimp when interbred.

Yes you are right. BVs have blue tissue with clear shells. I believe carbon/dreams are clear with blue shell pigment. So if you can get basically a blue dream with rili genes overlapping, then you get your BBCR/BBBR (blue bodied carbon/blue rili). But to get the "blue dream rili" you have to essentially reverse cull, selectively breeding out the defined rili patterns in blue carbon rili, so as to enhance the light blue and diminish the dark blue.

[Kat]

No idea ahhhh!  I didn't even know about those! 

[Mr. F]

BLue line is so confusing  so many.... different.... blues..... where do blue jellies come from

Blue jelly is the same as Blue pearl in Taiwan, but in The States it is a caridina "pheno" (in quotes because it usually fades to a panda morph after the juvenile stage).

[Kat]

Sorry,  I got confused with posts

[Kat]

19 minutes ago, Mr. F said:

Blue pearl are Neocaridina palmata. Very similar, but different species. They will FORSURE give you brown shrimp when interbred.

Yes you are right. BVs have blue tissue with clear shells. I believe carbon/dreams are clear with blue shell pigment. So if you can get basically a blue dream with rili genes overlapping, then you get your BBCR/BBBR (blue bodied carbon/blue rili). But to get the "blue dream rili" you have to essentially reverse cull, selectively breeding out the defined rili patterns in blue carbon rili, so as to enhance the light blue and diminish the dark blue.

Then,  I can't be sure the ones I started off with were actually blue pearl.  They were for sure producing red rili, bright red, and red rili with blue in the middle.  (Idk what the last one is called, so red/blue rili).  This was in a friend's tank where my 'blue pearls' originally came from.  I swore his interbred with red cherry shrimp, I didn't know how he ended up with all the bright red shrimp and red/blue rilis mixed in? 

 

Mine stayed light grey/blue until I added blue velvet, trying to "blueify" the blue pearls, but I guess that's where the blond shrimp came from? 

 

In another 5g, I moved two (what I thought were blue pearls) with a bit of red.  The shrimplets are too small still, but they are definitely showing a bright red chest, even at their small size.  I added a bluer male shrimp with red (I'm guessing blue velvet) later and one of the blue pearls is berried again. 

 

It might be my imagination,  but I thought the shrimplets looked redder while she was carrying the first time.  This time they look brown.

[Mr. F]

Maybe you guys had it backwards. Blue velvet gets you reds sometimes, and often red rilis pop up. Blue pearls are pretty true light blue. I'm almost positive your friend had a tank of blue velvets, not pearls. The the shrimp you added that threw the wildtypes/blondes were more than likely palmata (blue pearl).

[Kat]

I think you are right.  They must be blue velvet.   The blondes might have come from the addition of the blue diamonds.  

 

This is a pic of mama shrimp,  the father (Can you see the red dot behind his head? ) and some of their shrimplets, which all look the same and still very small. 

[Kat]

These were like the ones I first started off with, kind of a light greyish blue, and then some red appeared here and there.  The additions were supposed to be velvets and much bluer than what I was keeping.  I can't remember if red started showing up in shrimplets before or after I added the supposed blue velvets, but I have at least one really blue shrimp with a hint of red on his tail and head.  

 

Can you tell by the pics what they are? 

[Kat]

And just to explain it better,  my original blue shrimp all came from his tank, so they had to be blue velvets to start, just a lesser blue colour (lower quality).  They still bred blue for a long time before any red started popping up.

 

So the genes in my tank are:

-blue velvet

-blue dream/carbon rili

-blue diamond

 

And whatever that produced if I didn't already seperate.

 

After I added blue diamond and I started getting a lot of spotty/stripey dark blue shrimp, coloured shells to different degrees.  I guess there's no way to get lighter/brighter blue diamonds without massive culling and very colour-selected breeders, is there?  If I add some blue dream, would that most likely end up with a lot of brown/wild shrimp.

 

 

[Mr. F]

I think you are right.  They must be blue velvet.   The blondes might have come from the addition of the blue diamonds.  

 

This is a pic of mama shrimp,  the father (Can you see the red dot behind his head? ) and some of their shrimplets, which all look the same and still very small. 

The red most definitely came from blue velvets. Those look like very low grade rilis, but if you could increase the blue (add velvets) in a new tank, you may have to cull a bit, but could stabilize a blue bodied red rili (BBRR). Some of my fav neos.

EDIT: maybe try with a new batch of higher grade red rili and your existing BV.

These were like the ones I first started off with, kind of a light greyish blue, and then some red appeared here and there.  The additions were supposed to be velvets and much bluer than what I was keeping.  I can't remember if red started showing up in shrimplets before or after I added the supposed blue velvets, but I have at least one really blue shrimp with a hint of red on his tail and head.  

 

Can you tell by the pics what they are? 

It was probably before or soon after because depending on the number of each, it's not likely you'll get them to breed with the correct mates. Those are definitely blue velvet showing red rili genes.

And just to explain it better,  my original blue shrimp all came from his tank, so they had to be blue velvets to start, just a lesser blue colour (lower quality).  They still bred blue for a long time before any red started popping up.

 

So the genes in my tank are:

-blue velvet

-blue dream/carbon rili

-blue diamond

 

And whatever that produced if I didn't already seperate.

 

After I added blue diamond and I started getting a lot of spotty/stripey dark blue shrimp, coloured shells to different degrees.  I guess there's no way to get lighter/brighter blue diamonds without massive culling and very colour-selected breeders, is there?  If I add some blue dream, would that most likely end up with a lot of brown/wild shrimp.

 

 

Whatever had been produced by crossbreeding will only produce more poor quality shrimp down the line. I'd try to find your best BVs, red rilis, and BBRR, and separate them from the rest into their own tank. Then separate the best blue dreams and carbon rilis from the diamonds. That will tough. But then you maybe be able to restabilize the genetics by adding a few more of each variation to their respective tanks.

[Kat]

17 hours ago, Mr. F said:

 

 

 

 

The red most definitely came from blue velvets. Those look like very low grade rilis, but if you could increase the blue (add velvets) in a new tank, you may have to cull a bit, but could stabilize a blue bodied red rili (BBRR). Some of my fav neos.

 

EDIT: maybe try with a new batch of higher grade red rili and your existing BV.

 

 

 

 

 

It was probably before or soon after because depending on the number of each, it's not likely you'll get them to breed with the correct mates. Those are definitely blue velvet showing red rili genes.

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever had been produced by crossbreeding will only produce more poor quality shrimp down the line. I'd try to find your best BVs, red rilis, and BBRR, and separate them from the rest into their own tank. Then separate the best blue dreams and carbon rilis from the diamonds. That will tough. But then you maybe be able to restabilize the genetics by adding a few more of each variation to their respective tanks.

Thank you Mr. F

 

But there must be some confusion.  The red headed shrimplet in the pic is one example of what all the shrimplets look like from shrimp A (female) and shrimp B (male) in the latest pics (BV expressing red rili genes).  It's confusing, sorry.  I separated the topics now, but I have already placed just those two shrimp into another 5g of their own about a month ago.  So the red shrimplets are direct offspring of the two BVs expressing red rili genes.

 

These BVs, I suppose they are poor quality, but is it possible for two low quality BVs to produce low quality red rili?  I thought they'd automatically be good quality, since the offspring are a step down on the genetic scale. 

 

I haven't had red shrimp in a while, but I thought they didn't really show colour until they were more mature.  The shrimplet in the pic in teeny-tiny.  Only 2 weeks old max.  Are they really low quality rilis?  How can you tell?  Is it because the red on the tail is not showing yet? 

 

As for my blue dream/carbon rili project, yes,  lol!  I'll have A LOT of seperating to do, and I guess I'll have to cull now too  For now, all culls are going in a 10g with the blue diamond shrimp.  I'll segregate the 10g last.  When I replace my 5g with an 8g fluval, I can pretty much stay all over- provided I can ID my existing shrimp, or purchase new ones. 

 

Thanks for all of your help.  You've taught me a lot! 

[Kat]

Actually,  the shrimplet in the first pic was only a week old when the pic was taken.  Does that make a difference looking for quality?

[Mr. F]

Thank you Mr. F

 

But there must be some confusion.  The red headed shrimplet in the pic is one example of what all the shrimplets look like from shrimp A (female) and shrimp B (male) in the latest pics (BV expressing red rili genes).  It's confusing, sorry.  I separated the topics now, but I have already placed just those two shrimp into another 5g of their own about a month ago.  So the red shrimplets are direct offspring of the two BVs expressing red rili genes.

 

These BVs, I suppose they are poor quality, but is it possible for two low quality BVs to produce low quality red rili?  I thought they'd automatically be good quality, since the offspring are a step down on the genetic scale. 

 

I haven't had red shrimp in a while, but I thought they didn't really show colour until they were more mature.  The shrimplet in the pic in teeny-tiny.  Only 2 weeks old max.  Are they really low quality rilis?  How can you tell?  Is it because the red on the tail is not showing yet? 

 

As for my blue dream/carbon rili project, yes,  lol!  I'll have A LOT of seperating to do, and I guess I'll have to cull now too [emoji20]  For now, all culls are going in a 10g with the blue diamond shrimp.  I'll segregate the 10g last.  When I replace my 5g with an 8g fluval, I can pretty much stay all over- provided I can ID my existing shrimp, or purchase new ones. 

 

Thanks for all of your help.  You've taught me a lot! 

You have to remember that grade is a sign of genetic stability. Someone picked those traits and stabilized them. In the case of BV, the red has been selected out of a blue tissued red shrimp. So if they're low OR high quality blue velvet, either way, the reversion to red patterning will mostly still be minimal. It's the exceptional shrimp you are looking for that show more of the red genes.

The pattern has a lot to do with rili grading, but I cannot be certain they are low quality. I just suggested adding high quality rilis to the bloodline to increase the pattern, but if the BVs are low quality to begin with you may just diminish the blue that way. I'd just work with what you have and see how a couple generations turn out.

[Kat]

On 16/07/2016 at 7:46 PM, Mr. F said:

...Those look like very low grade rilis.....

 

Quote

 

EDIT: maybe try with a new batch of higher grade red rili and your existing BV......

......

20 hours ago, Mr. F said:

The pattern has a lot to do with rili grading, but I cannot be certain they are low quality.

 

Ok.  I got confused then  I'll have to work my way up into breeding good quality red rili from the BVs expressing RR genes...I think....

 

*I'll have to wait to see what quality of red rili they produced, and try to take the best red rilis and breed them in another tank?

 

Then when I get a consistent good quality red rilis, breed them back to low quality BV? (or what I have, because I believe I still have better quality BV not expressing red rili genes, but still in the 'blue shrimp' tank-which I'll have to remove anyway if they are BV)*

 

I realize I could buy good quality red rili, but I'm really just working with what I have for now.   

 

But if I WAS in a rush and serious about breeding BBRRs and BBRRs only, are the options above the only way to acheive that?   If not, are you suggesting I'll have big culling job ahead of me in this 5g BBRR tank too?  Lol, is just getting started with shrimp!  At least I can seperate the shrimp easier. 

 

And btw, absolutely no offense taken, just to make sure, I just want to understand.  Thanks for all your help!