Magnesium Citrate?

[Soothing Shrimp]

Is Mg Citrate okay to dissolve in water with aquatics for minerals?

[OblongShrimp]

I think Epson Salts are what people usually use for Mg.

[Merth]

Looks like someone is experimenting

[Soothing Shrimp]

Always, my friend.  Always. LOL

[Darkcobra]

The effects of various salts is part of what I've been looking into for DIY remineralizers.

 

Sulfate and carbonate salts are familiar enough.

 

Citrate salts are supposed to be more bioavailable.  Though this reputation comes largely from human nutritional supplements.  Even then, it might only show a clear advantage in certain individuals with compromised digestive systems.  No telling if any of this applies in a tank.

 

Once fully dissolved in water though, the magnesium and citrate ions are dissociated and can exchange partners.  And this is where it gets interesting.

 

Some copper medications and algaecides are made from copper sulfate and citric acid.  (I have made and used this with success as an emergency gill fluke cure for albino cories.)  These two in solution exist partially as copper citrate.  Citrated copper is less toxic, and toxicity is what makes these medications work, so the dosage must be doubled over a non-citrated copper medication.  At first you'd think the two changes cancel out, but the citrate still serves to moderate and stabilize peak toxicity, acting as a sort of controlled release agent for copper.

 

And if you were to add magnesium (or tricalcium) citrate, the citrate ions would do the same for any copper or other heavy metals present in the tank.  Sounds like a win to me.  Although I would still go slow, replacing or supplementing existing Mg with the citrate in small increments, with adequate time to observe any effects.  Speculation is one thing, reality often another.

 

Gluconate is even more interesting, typically in the form of calcium gluconate.  It's not only reputed to be more bioavailable, but is also much more soluble than any other calcium salt.  Not a big surprise, gluconate is a form of sugar, and calcium gluconate is 91% sugar by weight!

 

Sugar is typically added to feed certain bacteria, especially for the purposes of denitrification.  Reefers use it, or other carbohydrates (like vodka), for this purpose.  The bacteria are then removed, via protein skimmer or filter media changes, resulting in a net nutrient export.

 

Let's say the bacteria aren't removed, however, which would be more typical of a shrimp tank.  They will eventually reach a point where they are nutrient limited, dieing off as fast as they can reproduce, and no more net denitrification occurs.  The large population may still serve to stabilize nutrient levels, smoothing out peaks and valleys.  This could be advantageous for sensitive shrimp.  So long as gluconate continues to be dosed on a regular basis, of course.  Stop doing that and the denitrifying bacterial population will soon crash, releasing ammonia in the process, in quantities which nitrifying bacteria may not be able to handle.

 

I've seen someone describe Mosura's remineralizer as a syrup, making it a fair bet that it's gluconate-based.  Also that sometimes after dosing, some surface scum results, which shouldn't be a result of normal mineral salts; unless maybe they're causing bacterial proliferation.  Finally, a few mentioned that switching mineralizers resulted in shrimp deaths.  While not the only possible reason, bacterial die-off would sure contribute to that.

 

My initial DIY remineralizer will include a small amount tricalcium citrate.  Supplying magnesium citrate specifically isn't necessary, as the citrate will swap partners in solution.  I'm going to hold off on gluconates for now, as the bacterial aspect is a fairly large variable I'm not ready to introduce.

[Soothing Shrimp]

I really love your knowledge Darkcobra.

[danielt]

I don't want to hijack this thread. Please let me know if I'm off topic with this. Are there any recipes out there on how to make a remineralizing mix suitable for shrimp using CaSO4 or CaCl and MgSO4?

I'll try to decode what I can from SaltyShrimp products. At the moment, I don't have a clear idea of the Ca/Mg ratio you need to reach and what quantity of each ingredient is needed to reach it.

However, I do have a TDS meter, Ca test, Mg test and gH test. Just curious if someone already has some numbers on this.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Not many people working on homemade remin powders.  Darkcobra is one of teh only ones I know so far.

[danielt]

I noticed that myself. IMHO the commercial products just provide confort from ease of use. Not that they're using some hard to get, expensive, substances. Calcium and Magnesium can be found pretty much everywhere. Dialing in a mix that provides a nice balance between hardness and TDS is the hard part.

 

For instance, the SaltyShrimp products I bought from a guy that went out of business seem to be pretty good from the experience i have so far with them. However, I lost the only source in my country for these products. Ordering them online costs two-to-three times more than what I used to pay for them. The bulk is in shipping, mind you. Unless I get to make a split order with someone else it will be counter productive for me to order them online.

The only other product for remineralizing RO water available in my country is JBL AquaDur. Which is not that good to use with shrimp, Neos, maybe. But I prefer not using it at all near my shrimp tanks.

I did tinkered with CaSO4, CaCL and MgSO4 before, however, I didn't got the tests I do now. Was thinking on making my own mix and try to get some numbers out of the SaltyShrimp products. Afterwards, I plan on reproducing the same numbers with my homemade mix.

Trace minerals I can get out of cosmetic clay products, that's where I get my montmorillonite

[Soothing Shrimp]

"that's where I get my montmorillonite"

 

lol  Me too.

[octanejunkie]

Darkcobra has the shrimp-fu dialed tight

Good info here

Sent while on the go...