Making my own PRL. Or am I?

[Tigori]

Hi I just made a new account to every forum im in and im formerly known as jayr_tigley in this one because im hoping to go big in the future ( got an inspiration) and hope to be known in the shrimp hobby. So sometime last year me and my friends(that are not into shrimping) were thinking about what my conpany will be named if i ever get big LOL. So i decided to alter my last name a tad bit asiany (no racism intended and im also from asia) and came up with "Tigori". Now lets move on to the main topic.

As the title says im not really quite sure whether or not this will be successful. I recently bought 3 PBL. 1 is a female and the other was berried female and the last 1 i thought was a male but it seems to be just a young female so i have to get a male or two. Anyhow, i noticed that the berried female has a red dot just above her tail indicating that it has red bee gene on her so i quickly culled her and contacted my friend where i got them from and he said that its not good that his prl and pbl crossed for atleast 2 gen. and he quickly moved the prls in another tank (Note: 1 of his PRL line shares tank with a PBL line but just with a foam divider. Turned out not so good idea) anyways, when the female kicked out the shrimplets the babies looks very good and the majority was red (good think i culled them right away) the blacks can pass as a PBL in terms of coloration but i would not say its pure as the mother had red gene. And here is where its starting. I was thinking of making my own prl with the red bees that came from this batch after all according to theory that red bees with red bees will only give out red bees and no black bee gene whatsoever and since both of the parents and grandparents have never been in contact with white/golden bees and has remained pure until both of the pure lines crossed.

So if they were ever to be accepted as a PRL, i will be buying some benibachis and some of done wah prl mix them all together and cull to my standards. ( i think i will be only adding 1 line at a time so i can easily do selective breeding)

Post a comment on what you think and i hope that we can get somewhere to were we both agree

[EricM]

getting a line of shrimp you can call PRL/PBL/etc takes years of culling the best whites.  any of these high end lines you see out there have been culling their best whites for almost a decade.  

 

you can short cut it but your culling standards are probably nowhere near as extreme as these top breeds.

[JamesHe]

No, you can't.

 

Once CRS crossed with CBS, it's never can be PRL. period.

[Tigori]

getting a line of shrimp you can call PRL/PBL/etc takes years of culling the best whites. any of these high end lines you see out there have been culling their best whites for almost a decade.

you can short cut it but your culling standards are probably nowhere near as extreme as these top breeds.

Are you the one who's managing discobee? I have been following you on facebook for a while now and i really like your shrimp rack.

Im also aware about how long and how extreme breeding and culling the successful farms has been doing and I adore mostly how japanese folks selective breed kois, goldfishes,shrimps and etc. to get the best possible offspring and how their lives almost depends on them by spending alot of money to their passion. I think this is something we all agree on and respect about jap breeders. I may not get on the same page as them but I hope to atleast get near to half of what they have done. After all, its not all that impossible.

[Tigori]

No, you can't.

Once CRS crossed with CBS, it's never can be PRL. period.

This i have to disagree on. PRL also started with CRS. And even benibachi started with CRS. I have read in an old thread long ago about someone from singapore (i think?) is complaining about how he got quite a number of SW in the benibachis he got from benibachi thailand. And benibachi thailand replied how they are sorry and its their fault because they only ordered SSS because it was the hype back then. Then the guy replied that even though, the shrimps he bought should'nt give any SW as they are Pure Line. This case was pretty serious therefore benibachi thailand contacted benibachi japan and said that this may happen as long ago, almost all breeders bred their red bees with sw to increase the white and grade but this result to only increase of the shrimps grade. And that is why they can get SW if they were to breed 2 SSS. Benibachi does not breed their PRL with SW but culls them instead. And since the amount and chance of SW they get from breeding 2 sss is fairly low, not all shrimpers really knows about it. And also they claimed that they really dont know what PRL/PBL means and the term actually came from singapore or taiwan ( i dont quite remember) and they thought that pure line means how you describe a very high quality crystal shrimp. Also they dont call them pbl or prl in benibachi but red bee or black bee if translated to english. (They actually said that they dont call prl or pbl in "japan" and not just in benibachi but i replaced it as benibachi since this statement came from them alone and some might have been calling them pure lnes now in japan. Keep in mind the thread was few years old)

[EricM]

Are you the one who's managing discobee? I have been following you on facebook for a while now and i really like your shrimp rack.

Yes I'm the owner. thanks!  

 

following this thread. 

[jumpsmasher]

Regardless of the terms if your goal is the solid red / white found in high grade PRL, using CRS that's been crossed with CBS will definitely set you back many generations as you will have to breed out the CBS genes.  

 

Honestly, if you want to develop your own PRL line I would start with some high quality JPRL / PRL lines instead - breeder grade S or higher and go from there. Do some research on which line have the characteristics you want and go from there.

 

At the end of the day, the quality or reputation your "brand" of your line will depend on the quality of the shrimps you are producing.  

[Tigori]

At the end of the day, the quality or reputation your "brand" of your line will depend on the quality of the shrimps you are producing.

Agreed.

Even though it was a mix of PBL and PRL?

Because the red bee i will be using is actually an offspring between 2 prlxpbl

[Tigori]

Yes I'm the owner. thanks!

following this thread.

Especially your 4G. Are they branded or specially made?

[jumpsmasher]

Agreed.

Even though it was a mix of PBL and PRL?

Because the red bee i will be using is actually an offspring between 2 prlxpbl

 

Yes but do realize that crossing PBL with your PRL might set you back years... And since it been crossed with PBL most ppl would consider it a "Pure Line" but not necessarily PBL or PRL.  If your goal is a PRL than you have to make sure you don't breed any shrimps with any "undesireable" trait - so crossing it with CBS is big no no.

 

It would be more accurate to call "Tigori Red Bee Line"  rather than PRL as the generally accepted definition is that PRL has not been cross with any non PRL (i.e golden, CBS) as it would be no longer "pure red" once you do that.

[Tigori]

Yes but do realize that crossing PBL with your PRL might set you back years... And since it been crossed with PBL most ppl would consider it a "Pure Line" but not necessarily PBL or PRL. If your goal is a PRL than you have to make sure you don't breed any shrimps with any "undesireable" trait - so crossing it with CBS is big no no.

It would be more accurate to call "Tigori Red Bee Line" rather than PRL as the generally accepted definition is that PRL has not been cross with any non PRL (i.e golden, CBS) as it would be no longer "pure red" once you do that.

Yes and it was actually an accident since the tank they were in have been overlooked for quite a while apart from feeding and wc because of tibee pinto breeding. And thank you i think it is really more accurate to call it Tigori Red Line than Tigori PRL

[jumpsmasher]

How breeders get their prized top end shrimps is really their own trade secret.  If you are developing you own line, any individuals that does not meet your criteria has really very little value to your breeding program and like I said the end result will speak for themselves.  Once your get to a level of the asian breeders no one will question the lineage.

 

The PRL term only really comes into play when you are selling off your culls and expect a certain price point for them.  Of course ppl will pay more for PRL but with that term comes expectations that they are not crossed with CBS, Golden or non-PRL CRS.

[Tigori]

Understood. I'll keep that in mind.

[JamesHe]

This i have to disagree on. PRL also started with CRS. And even benibachi started with CRS. I have read in an old thread long ago about someone from singapore (i think?) is complaining about how he got quite a number of SW in the benibachis he got from benibachi thailand. And benibachi thailand replied how they are sorry and its their fault because they only ordered SSS because it was the hype back then. Then the guy replied that even though, the shrimps he bought should'nt give any SW as they are Pure Line. This case was pretty serious therefore benibachi thailand contacted benibachi japan and said that this may happen as long ago, almost all breeders bred their red bees with sw to increase the white and grade but this result to only increase of the shrimps grade. And that is why they can get SW if they were to breed 2 SSS. Benibachi does not breed their PRL with SW but culls them instead. And since the amount and chance of SW they get from breeding 2 sss is fairly low, not all shrimpers really knows about it. And also they claimed that they really dont know what PRL/PBL means and the term actually came from singapore or taiwan ( i dont quite remember) and they thought that pure line means how you describe a very high quality crystal shrimp. Also they dont call them pbl or prl in benibachi but red bee or black bee if translated to english. (They actually said that they dont call prl or pbl in "japan" and not just in benibachi but i replaced it as benibachi since this statement came from them alone and some might have been calling them pure lnes now in japan. Keep in mind the thread was few years old)

 

I heard story. no comments on it.

 

but this is the real example that if you claim you have PRL, but get golden or CBS offspring. you ruin all your reputation.

 

so before you start, think it throughly. you will work on your line for years, and the shrimp you sell has small chance to produce un-desired trait. is something you really want to do?

 

If you like the shrimp you have and want to work on it to further selective breeding for your own line, it's fine.

 

but if you want to call it PRL, I think not all the ppl would accept it.

 

English is not my native language, if it sounds offensive, I apologize.

[Tigori]

I heard story. no comments on it.

but this is the real example that if you claim you have PRL, but get golden or CBS offspring. you ruin all your reputation.

so before you start, think it throughly. you will work on your line for years, and the shrimp you sell has small chance to produce un-desired trait. is something you really want to do?

If you like the shrimp you have and want to work on it to further selective breeding for your own line, it's fine.

but if you want to call it PRL, I think not all the ppl would accept it.

English is not my native language, if it sounds offensive, I apologize.

As jumpsmasher has mentioned, i will not call this line a pure line instead i will be calling it tigori red line instead . However if it were to become a pure line somewhere down the line, i guess that would be lucky of me too.

Me too! English is also not my native language but actually my 4th language so that applies to me too if i were to offense anyone, i apologize

[jumpsmasher]

I heard story. no comments on it.

 

I remember that story as well and my view on it was the seller claim there would be no golden offsprings but Benibachi themselves never claim this so there was something lost in translation.  What Benibachi stated was they don't use golden gene when breeding.  On a mature line than usually this mean no golden offsprings.  But on a young line, there might be golden offsprings but they just get culled out.   The chances goes up if you are breeding mosura and higher patterns especially with head patterns.  

 

from my experience if you start a new line and get golden offsprings it takes a several generations before you will stop getting them.

[Tigori]

I remember that story as well and my view on it was the seller claim there would be no golden offsprings but Benibachi themselves never claim this so there as something lost in translation. What Benibachi stated was they don't use golden gene when breeding. On a mature line than usually this mean no golden offsprings. But on a young line, there might be golden offsprings but they just get culled out. The chances goes up if you are breeding mosura and higher patterns especially with head patterns.

from my experience if you start a new line and get golden offsprings it takes a several generations before you will stop getting them.

In that thread at that time, the meaning of pure line was almost lost as they had the thought that how can we call this a pure line if the country of which we thought the origin of the term declared that they are not sure as to what pure lines mean.

[JamesHe]

In that thread at that time, the meaning of pure line was almost lost as they had the thought that how can we call this a pure line if the country of which we thought the origin of the term declared that they are not sure as to what pure lines mean.

 

for now a days. Pure Red Line and Pure Line are different things.

 

by definition: PRL never cross breeded with golden and CBS in its history.

in other hands, PL could and allowed, after years of selective breeding, near zero chance to produce golden or CBS, at this point, it can be called Pure Line of CRS.

 

but Pure Line never can be called as Pure Red Line.

[jumpsmasher]

for now a days. Pure Red Line and Pure Line are different things.

 

by definition: PRL never cross breeded with golden and CBS in its history.

in other hands, PL could and allowed, after years of selective breeding, near zero chance to produce golden or CBS, at this point, it can be called Pure Line of CRS.

 

but Pure Line never can be called as Pure Red Line.

 

Yes agreed but i believe the controversy from that thread was that the Benibachi PRL that was purchased produced quite a few golden offsprings.  Benibachi said that even though they cull out golden offsprings (i.e they don't use golden genes) they do pop up sometimes especially on newer lines and/or Mosura.  

 

I think if you go for Mosura patterns with extreme headgear with your PRL, you might get some all-white shrimps, at least until you stabilize the line.  Of course the "pure-white" shrimps from PRL will be a much higher quality than what we call Golden Bees as they would have the solid white you would find on a standard PRL and i remember someone said that these type of snow white shrimps go for high amounts on japanese auctions as well as they are rare as most get culled out

[Tigori]

Yes agreed but i believe the controversy from that thread was that the Benibachi PRL that was purchased produced quite a few golden offsprings. Benibachi said that even though they cull out golden offsprings (i.e they don't use golden genes) they do pop up sometimes especially on newer lines and/or Mosura.

I think if you go for Mosura patterns with extreme headgear with your PRL, you might get some all-white shrimps, at least until you stabilize the line. Of course the "pure-white" shrimps from PRL will be a much higher quality than what we call Golden Bees as they would have the solid white you would find on a standard PRL and i remember someone said that these type of snow white shrimps go for high amounts on japanese auctions as well as they are rare as most get culled out

[Tigori]

Not mine btw

[randy]

I tend to accept that offspring of  Pure Red Line x Pure Black Line are still Pure, since I accept the definition of the "no golden rule".

 

In fact, (source won't be identified), cross Pure Red Line with Pure Black Line is a way to strengthen the Pure Red line's gene. This is okay (at least I think it is) is that, as long as there is no golden gene from PRL and PBL, and the red offspring from PRL X PBL won't give you black, they are still PRL (no golden gene).

 

I only pay attention to PRL status because the market value, for individual shrimps, PRL don't always beat non-PRL. I have a tank of shrimps from Max Wei (a famous Taiwanese breeder for his Golden/Snow White), they aren't PRL, but the colour is great. Although in the last year I have had them I haven't seen one golden, I don't mark them as PRL, and everyone who has seen that tank agrees with me the quality is very good.

[Tigori]

I tend to accept that offspring of Pure Red Line x Pure Black Line are still Pure, since I accept the definition of the "no golden rule".

In fact, (source won't be identified), cross Pure Red Line with Pure Black Line is a way to strengthen the Pure Red line's gene. This is okay (at least I think it is) is that, as long as there is no golden gene from PRL and PBL, and the red offspring from PRL X PBL won't give you black, they are still PRL (no golden gene).

I only pay attention to PRL status because the market value, for individual shrimps, PRL don't always beat non-PRL. I have a tank of shrimps from Max Wei (a famous Taiwanese breeder for his Golden/Snow White), they aren't PRL, but the colour is great. Although in the last year I have had them I haven't seen one golden, I don't mark them as PRL, and everyone who has seen that tank agrees with me the quality is very good.

This is exactly what I thought since there were no golden involved and the the red offspring if mated with only red will not give any black so the future quality shouldnt suffer that much if i continue to breed them with prl

[JamesHe]

This is exactly what I thought since there were no golden involved and the the red offspring if mated with only red will not give any black so the future quality shouldnt suffer that much if i continue to breed them with prl

 

Not everybody agrees on this, it's big controversy on this topic.

 

IMHO, pure red crystal shrimp is the descendant of first three red Bee shrimps.

 

any cross breed with wild type Bee shrimp (or CBS) would damage its Pure status.

[JamesHe]

Let's look at it this way.

 

Golden is actually just mutation of CRS. it shares the same ancestor as pure CRS.

so you cross these two, it's no longer considered as pure red CRS. All agree on this, right?

 

Now you intruduce new ancestor (CBS, Wild Bee) into your PRL blood line. you still want to call it Pure?