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(trace)mineral nutrition - diet or water?


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Hey shrimpsters,

 

I wanted to raise a topic with whoever may be interested to explain something regarding minerals in the water for freshwater shrimps. i hear a lot of different and sometimes conflicting information about freshwater dwarf shrimp requirements since ive tried to learn about them.

 

I am trying to understand more about how/what shrimp need to absorb from their water - it is an established fact that calcium and magnesium is necessarily obtained from the water -common knowledge says Ca:Mg should be at a ratio of 3:1.

 

however .. i've found conflicting reports about what other minerals/trace elements are necessary in the water for shrimp or whether they are not necessary? some claim that as long as the trace elements are available in the shrimp diet then they are just as healthy and it makes no difference if the micronutrients/elements are in the water column or not but others state that it is important to have a full spectrum of minerals in the water for the shrimp to absorb.

 

so I would just love if anyone here would care to offer their knowledge about this subject and explain the reasoning behind it - any external links to research papers/scholarly articles (obviously not a company/manufacturer website of course!) would be absolutely wonderful. i am really keen to understand this better and make my own informed decision instead of being a naive consumer.

 

i am quite clueless when it comes to science as a whole but basically i want to understand the requirement of shrimps to absorb trace-minerals from the water or if their diet alone is adequate. i have tried to do some searching of my own about this but without a good background understanding of biology and chemistry it is impossible for me to piece together! :startle:

 

in my mind it follows that it could be possible there is some unnecessary duplication with shrimp products that are available and therefore could some of these minerals be available in excess and even be detrimental to shrimp health?

 

love n peace

 

will

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I do know from personal experience that TB shrimp need a healthy varied diet and trace elements and minerals in the water column as well to show their best color. From what I have been told neos do not require this delicate balance.  I dont know about other types of shrimp and I dont know the science behind it but I could see a huge difference in my TB shrimp when I stated dosing daily minerals into the water.

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I do know from personal experience that TB shrimp need a healthy varied diet and trace elements and minerals in the water column as well to show their best color. From what I have been told neos do not require this delicate balance.  I dont know about other types of shrimp and I dont know the science behind it but I could see a huge difference in my TB shrimp when I stated dosing daily minerals into the water.

I could be wrong but I believe the huge difference your seeing is from dosing Revive Minerals/Vivace and not Revive Colore.

 

Most of the mineralizers are liquid and only Revive Minerals/Vivace is dry.

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hey chibikaie I can appreciate that but there is a good amoujt of research papers out there on aquaculture including freshwater shrimp farming. Unfortunately I lack the science background (and probably the brains lol) to be able to sift through the details. im sure the research on larger shrimps could generally be applied to dwarf shrimps.

I also realise the dwarf shrimp hobby is new so there may not be many people yet who have taken the time to gather the evidence (and ofc who have time and willingness to share the information in laymans terms on the breeding hobby forum)

im hoping shrimpydaddy notices this as he can probably shed some light on it. ive noticed he is one shrimp keeper with a science qualification who likes to share the details or his research and findings.

love n peace

will

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I'm always leery of trying to take data on one species and blanket applying it to others. "Oh, rodents don't vomit, don't worry about them throwing up under anesthesia." Then I had three out of four squirrels barf on me and I wasn't so confident about generalizations anymore. Aquacultured shrimp are - I think? - mostly Macrobrachium, and I wouldn't want to guess how closely they are related (or not).

Definitely ask Shrimpy Daddy. I believe his system of products is designed to provide minerals both in the water column and on the substrate to be consumed, so I would guess that he has a reason for doing so.

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hey chibikaie I can appreciate that but there is a good amoujt of research papers out there on aquaculture including freshwater shrimp farming. Unfortunately I lack the science background (and probably the brains lol) to be able to sift through the details. im sure the research on larger shrimps could generally be applied to dwarf shrimps.

I also realise the dwarf shrimp hobby is new so there may not be many people yet who have taken the time to gather the evidence (and ofc who have time and willingness to share the information in laymans terms on the breeding hobby forum)

im hoping shrimpydaddy notices this as he can probably shed some light on it. ive noticed he is one shrimp keeper with a science qualification who likes to share the details or his research and findings.

love n peace

will

Did you have any papers in particular that address this?

 

There must be something, considering all these products available. I'd like to think they were based on some science...

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im hoping shrimpydaddy notices this as he can probably shed some light on it. ive noticed he is one shrimp keeper with a science qualification who likes to share the details or his research and findings.

love n peace

will

 

 

What about MK who own their own labs?  does that count?

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Did you have any papers in particular that address this?

 

There must be something, considering all these products available. I'd like to think they were based on some science...

35ppt mate i think you hit the nail right on the head here - they must be based on some science - i'm sure the products are indeed based on science - but of course when money is involved ... everything gets a little bit .. hazy...

 

i would be so so happy to get some input from anyone "in the know" here on some scientific detail of what minerals are required for shrimphealth and whether they are needed in the water column or if diet alone will give the same result?

 

love n peace

 

will

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I'm thinking the same thing, Will...the article is about saltwater creatures, and when it mentions freshwater it states freshwater shrimp don't absorb minerals from the environment, but rather intake through diet.

 

"Fish and shrimp live in a hypertonic environment and drinking salt water may partly fulfill of their mineral requirements (NRC, 1983).  Also they make with the direct absorption of minerals through the gills, fins and skin. The situation in freshwater fish and prawns is the reverse .Freshwater fish and prawns are therefore more demanding on an adequate dietary mineral supply than marine fish and shrimp (Cowey and Sargent, 1979)."

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soothing see my post in SD research thread. I haven't become dependent on many products yet. I haf huge success with my cherry shrimp with community foods + algae wafers + lots of plants. no additives at all.

So I feel I have got to understand this issue because an industry can easily exist based on hearsay alone and not on solid research.

i saw thid firsthand in the hydroponics industry already before I discovered shrimpkeeping.

love n peace

will

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thanks for the welcome, I reallt do believe in sharing knowledge, im a total beginner and still getting my head around some of the most basic of concepts that relate to fish and shrimpkeeping! but I have an inquisitive mind and I hope I can stir others to consider things differently even if I can't offer much insight myself yet.

there does seem to be a lot of helpful and sharing people around shrimpspot here so its good to be here :-)

love n peace

will

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I’ve been reading this thread on/off the past couple of days. I haven’t been active as of late on forums because I’ve grown too addicted to MH4U and it just so happens that this thread is different and more interesting than those product review, For Sale, and “oops” threads that has been cluttering my tapatalk feed as of late.

I’ve been a shrimp keeper/breeder for roughly 7 years now and it still amazes me that I’m learning more and more everyday. From the rocky start to the smooth sailing I’m experiencing now, I’ve learned a lot along the way. Part of that learning process included buying and trying many products and realizing that some worked, some didn’t. Some worked amazingly well, and some just worked. Now…. It’s up to the end user to decide how they want to take that approach and what it’s worth to them because they’re cost associated with everything. Some are more inclined to take the less costly path, and that’s fine, while some seek to do whatever they can to maximize the health and overall wellbeing of their shrimps, and that is also fine. Different approach will lead to different results and ultimately a different conclusion.

You mentioned that you know, or know of, other experienced keepers that report that they do not dose micros and that they do fine dosing macros but the exact opposite was the thought process not so long ago. 2-3years ago, folks would cringe at the thought of dosing macros into a shrimp tank. The idea (then) was keep it mossy, keep it aerated, don’t dose ferts, and for god sake’s don’t inject Co2. Within the past few years, those ideas have started to shift. Now, there are some folks here that still swear by the principles of no ferts, and not co2 because it works for them. I’ve found while the no ferts no co2 method works, I’m often left with an unsightly tank that isn’t pleasant to look at. Because almost all of my tanks are located in an area where people frequent or is part of a display, I didn’t opt to do the breeding style tanks. I started off getting into the whole ADA scaping stuff then shifted to shrimp keeping, but I guess a part of me still desire that “nice” scape look, even for my shrimp tanks. Luckily, I successfully found a balance between the scaped tank and shrimp tank.

There’s a lot of conjunction between what works and doesn’t work. One of the most amazing thing that I’ve found is, what works for one, may not work for another. I’ve seen local ads of someone selling CRS that have been born and raised in my local tap water… until then, I didn’t believe it was possible to raise and breed CRS with the local tap. I was proven wrong.

As part of any hobby, we start off rocky, stable ourselves, and then seek ways to improve on what we’ve already learned. Myself, I went from killing shrimps to keeping shrimps alive. Then from keeping them alive to having them successfully breed. From breed to berried, from berried to release, from release to rearing, from rearing into maturity and ultimately repeating the cycle. What I’m saying is… shrimp keeping is so much more than keeping something alive or successfully breeding them. There’s so many factors and nuances to keeping shrimps. Those that can successfully breed shrimps will seek ways to improve their rearing and maturity rates. Others will seek on ways to improve the overall looks of their shrimps (not talking solely about genetics), because at the end of the day, I know it would kill me if I cannot figure out why this shrimp that arrived at my doorstep looked amazing when I bought it ended up slowly degrading the longer it lived in my tank.

Things like this is what SD considers. I’m in the same boat when it comes to this. I love to see my shrimps healthy and happy. I’m not as smart or have any sort of a biology background. My day job is very different than what I do in this hobby. At the very least it makes me happy to know that what I’m doing and that products I’m using for my shrimps is giving me the results I hadn’t seen when using different products.

Anywhose, that’s my long winded 2cents. Now back to the hunt.

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I also agree with ShrimpFan that people that I trust and respect in this hobby all have different approaches that work very well for them.  I have had a steep learning curve in shrimp keeping and can tell you that for me personally a significant change happened in my tank when I switched remineralizers and started dosing macro and micro nutrients.  This method might not be neccessary for others depending on a myriad of variables.  Also I noticed in the great article linked by Mayphly that shrimp absorb nutrients from the water column and through ingestion. And it goes on to say they can gain the required nutrients more heavily from one source or the other if one source is defficient in the required nutrients.  So it looks like the answer to your question is they are both important but if one source is lacking the other source can compensate to some degree for the missing nutrients.

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