LEDs die fast?

[Crackhead Johny]

I was at Petsmart and noticed that the LEDs lights in their aquarium packages say "6 year life"! My Spec 3 lights have also gone dim in a matter of months.

Is this  normal or only for low grade LED lights? I was thinking these would last nearly forever with the talk about "20 year life" for LED bulbs.. though my Crees have not lasted very long before dimming or dying.

 

I'm not sure there is any cash savings it you have to replace the light every 6 years.

 

[EKLiu]

I have had the same exact experience with the Spec  lamp not lasting long.  This was from years back when the Spec just came out, so it looks like things have not changed.

[DETAquarium]

To be honest when it comes to aquarium hardware, you get what you pay for. I always bite the bullet take a little bit longer to save, to buy something of quality. It is something I certainly have learned over the years.

[Vpier]

1 hour ago, DETAquarium said:

To be honest when it comes to aquarium hardware, you get what you pay for. I always bite the bullet take a little bit longer to save, to buy something of quality. It is something I certainly have learned over the years.

I have no experience with the Spec 3. I agree you get what you pay for. The really cheap lights from China will not last. If you only need lights for low to medium light requiring plants then the really cheap ones with low life span can be justified due to price. You can buy a very good light for $100 that last 5-6 years or buy three $25- $30 lights in that time span. Places like Petsmart and Petco sells equipment that is just as crappy as Walmart.

[Crackhead Johny]

At ~6 months my Finnex Stingrays are a little dimmer. Which in the case of the 10 gal is nice, as that was so bright it hurt to look at. They are still working fine (plants are happy) unlike the Fluval lights.

If a 100$ light only lasts 5-6 years is florescent the cheaper way to go? Double the energy cost but swap bulbs and you are back in business as opposed to swapping the whole light or soldering new LEDs back in?

 

[DETAquarium]

4 hours ago, Crackhead Johny said:

At ~6 months my Finnex Stingrays are a little dimmer. Which in the case of the 10 gal is nice, as that was so bright it hurt to look at. They are still working fine (plants are happy) unlike the Fluval lights.

If a 100$ light only lasts 5-6 years is florescent the cheaper way to go? Double the energy cost but swap bulbs and you are back in business as opposed to swapping the whole light or soldering new LEDs back in?

 

Finnex are considered cheap as well, that is my personal opinion. T5HO 4 Bulb was twice as much if not more when fluorescent was the primary light source.

[Vpier]

1 hour ago, DETAquarium said:

Finnex are considered cheap as well, that is my personal opinion. T5HO 4 Bulb was twice as much if not more when fluorescent was the primary light source.

Deta is correct about the Finnex. Its very good for low end but good LED's are not cheap.

[Pescador]

Finnex LED lights are well liked in the planted tank community.  The Stingray is the cheapest model Finnex makes and it really is intended as an aquarium light but does OK on low light planted tanks.  

The biggest problem with low end LED lights is the circuitry.  It costs more to add the proper protection circuitry, dimming capability and other features the high end lights come with.  The cheap lights often have the LED's over biased which gives them more output early on but causes them to fail sooner or drop in light intensity.

DETAQUARIUM is correct that you get what you pay for, but thankfully the gap continues to close and you can get a pretty nice LED light in the $100-$200.00 range.  If you compare the cost of a 4 bulb T5HO figure and needing to replace bulbs every 6-12 months, I think you will find the medium priced LED lighting to be the best deal on overall.  Then again I have a cheap Beamworks LED that has been going strong for over a year so sometimes I guess you can get lucky...

[seaj]

I find LED technology incredibly exciting. There are always new applications, and new ways to DIY whatever you need, though at this time everything is still pricey.  I myself always try to be economical, so I go for function over form. I have had nice results so far with the LED shoplights I have been using for both my plants and for my tanks. 

I use the Feit LED shop lights that I picked up from Costco, and well as a similar light from Lights of America that I stumbled upon at Walmart.

I first picked the Feit shop light after Aquarium Co-OP did a comparison of the light. They are now only $30 each. http://www.costco.com/4%E2%80%99-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100223617.html

My current preferred light is the LED shop light from Lights of America. It's brighter (4500 lumens vs 3700), and is more suited for my needs. The LEDS are encased in a clear tube, vs the diffused tube of the Feit, so less light is wasted, plus there is less light spilling out the sides due to the larger reflector. The color temperature is much closer to white at 5000k, vs the 4100k of the Feit, which casts a noticeably warmer color. I don't know how it compares as far as PAR is concerned though, and it was more expensive. $45 I think. They're available here too http://www.samsclub.com/sams/4ft-led-shoplight-shoplight-led/prod16460030.ip for $35.

These lights are more suited for rack systems, I think. They're not pretty, and may not even make your shrimp look their prettiest, but they are cheap, and more than bright enough to grow plants. My floating plants are out of control with the 10.5 hours of light I give them. They have to be thinned out by the handful every week or else then just pile up on themselves and die. They keep all the nitrates at zero, and tossing out all the excess plants effectively exports all those extra nutrients. There's never any algae anywhere, and the moss type plants I keep underneath the floaters continue to grow.

I've had these lights for under a year, but I only keep low-tech tanks, so diminished light output would be tolerable.

For a DIY option, 5060 LEDs are popular too, but this LED build in the last post of this page http://www.orchidboard.com/community/growing-under-lights/74275-cheap-ebay-diy-led-2.html is super low profile, simple and bright.

The youtube channel DIY Perks has some pretty awesome LED projects for anyone who needs some inspiration.

[Aennedry]

I am kind of cheating on LED lighting right now. I still have a few incandesent hoods, and I found at Home Depot lightbulbs called LED bright stik. Three bulbs for under $12. 10w bulbs, 760 lumens. One really lights up my 5 gal, a lot better that the T8 in my other 5 gal.

=^._.^=

[OMG Aquatics]

Are Current USA Satellite LED+ considered cheap leds?

Wasn't aware that Finnex LED were cheap but I've read that many of their lights fail right after warranty.

[newellcr]

Is it really the LEDs  that are the problem and not the power supply or a corroded connection?  I ask because I have yet to have a problem with an LED. 

[35ppt]

You get what you pay for, but that is a simple guideline. Paying more is not always worth it. Which is why I find it so valuable when people with the knowledge so analytics, like taking these things apart and see what the build quality is really like.

[pucksr]

It is definitely the LEDs. LEDs dim over time based on operating temperature

The heatsink and cooling is the most expensive part of an LED. The hotter you drive your LED, the faster it will die.
Aquarium vendors have a warranty of 1-year(4,000 hours). They aren't going to spend money getting your temp down to 55 degrees just to give you a better light.

This has become a known issue with "lighting performance contracts" in the lighting industry. When contractors have to meet a lumen spec over a 10 year period, they buy better lights. We would be smart to do the same thing.

[pucksr]

As a note, Cree LEDs can be driven as hot as 150 degrees C. The higher the temp, the faster the curve. 

That data is a graph of data from Cree located here:http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/XLamp%20Application%20Notes/LM80_Results.pdf

 

[Vpier]

1 hour ago, pucksr said:

As a note, Cree LEDs can be driven as hot as 150 degrees C. The higher the temp, the faster the curve. 

That data is a graph of data from Cree located here:http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/XLamp%20Application%20Notes/LM80_Results.pdf

 

What kind of prices are we talking about for these better LED's ?

[newellcr]

I haven't purchased an 'aquarium light' in years.  I think we are talking past each other here.  I have approximately 300 linear feet of LED strips running for about a year and a half.  These are 5050 and 5630 LED strips.  I bought inexpensive strips and have recouped my hardware expense in less than 10 months with electricity savings. I suspect that this is very different than what you are talking about.  The pictures are representative of what I use.   http://www.amazon.com/360deal-5m16-4ft-SMD-5630-300/dp/B00D83BGVS?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

 

The reason I question the LED failures is based on this.  A fellow club member of mine has fixed several Chinese built aquarium LED fixture failures by rewiring them with new power supplies. I can't speak to the age of the fixtures, but I do suspect that they were very inexpensive. 

 

[newellcr]

1 hour ago, pucksr said:

As a note, Cree LEDs can be driven as hot as 150 degrees C. The higher the temp, the faster the curve. 

That data is a graph of data from Cree located here:http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/XLamp%20Application%20Notes/LM80_Results.pdf

 

Why do you want to drive the LEDs hotter? 

[pucksr]

53 minutes ago, newellcr said:

Why do you want to drive the LEDs hotter? 

The LEDs will generate X amount of thermal energy(heat). The only difference between one LED and another is the efficiency. An LED that produces 100Lumens/watt will produce less heat than an LED that produces 50Lumens per watt IFF you are making the same amount of light from each of them. Your 5050 LEDs generate less heat per unit, but probably are less efficient(therefore they produce more heat in total). 

A heatsink dissipates the heat. The bigger/better the heatsink, the cooler the LED will operate because more thermal energy will be removed from the diode. No one WANTS to drive the LEDs hotter. It decreases their output and decreases their life.

1 hour ago, Vpier said:

What kind of prices are we talking about for these better LED's ?

I wasn't saying Cree LED are better. I was making a comment about the data. The graph only has data up to 105C. The LEDs are technically within design spec up to 150C, so some manufacturers run them that hot(meaning a very short life)

 

1 hour ago, newellcr said:

I haven't purchased an 'aquarium light' in years.  I think we are talking past each other here.  I have approximately 300 linear feet of LED strips running for about a year and a half.  These are 5050 and 5630 LED strips.  I bought inexpensive strips and have recouped my hardware expense in less than 10 months with electricity savings. I suspect that this is very different than what you are talking about.  The pictures are representative of what I use.   http://www.amazon.com/360deal-5m16-4ft-SMD-5630-300/dp/B00D83BGVS?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

The reason I question the LED failures is based on this.  A fellow club member of mine has fixed several Chinese built aquarium LED fixture failures by rewiring them with new power supplies. I can't speak to the age of the fixtures, but I do suspect that they were very inexpensive. 

That is probably an issue as well. Oddly, the "power supply issue" is probably due to heat as well. The power supply for LEDs is a simple device, but it generates a bit of heat. Better manufacturers(like philips) will heat-sink the heck out of these devices.

I also wouldn't doubt the poor wiring issue. Neither, however, is what started this thread. So, I was addressing the original issue.

 

Why don't they just put better heatsinks on these devices?

Even the nicest LED only costs about $3. An array of LEDs isn't too expensive. A large heatsink is expensive, just not in material cost but in shipping cost. It drastically increases the per-unit cost of the product. On top of that, it isn't an issue that becomes apparent immediately. Your light will work perfectly for YEARS. Your LED light is sleeker and prettier. Everyone wins!!!!(except your wallet in the long-term)

[newellcr]

 I am glad I asked "Why would you want to drive them hotter?".  Your answer wasn't the answer I thought I might get.  I thought you might be upping the voltage to increase the light output.  I am happy with the light output of my 5050s so I haven't dug any deeper in learning about these things more than I needed to do.  Thanks for the reply.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Soothing Shrimp]

Pucksr, awesome info! Thank you!

[Crackhead Johny]

One thing I noticed when I stripped down some household Chinese light bulbs (which seemed to have really nice heat sinks) was that their failure was most likely a bad/cheap process of applying the thermal interface.

In the cheap house hold bulbs which lasted about 2 weeks there was close to 0 thermal interface material connecting the LED mounting plate to the heat sink. A decent sink doesn't help if there is no way for the heat to get to it.

 

30$ shop lights. Hmmm.

[seaj]

I took some temperature readings yesterday to compare my two shop lights. The ambient temp in my second shelf was 80° F. It was 90°F on top of the shop light from Lights Of America, and 96°F on top of the Feit Shop light. I don't know how accurate the readings are since all I did was place a thermometer on top of the light fixtures to get the readings, but the Lights of America shop light does have a significantly larger reflector (must be aluminum?) that's probably acting as a heat sink. It's cooler even though it puts out more light.

[Brolly33]

One year use out of my lifeguard 36". Only runs 5 watts and super cool to touch.  I expect to get a good long life out of it. Was about $75.