Trying not to panic!

[Mamashack]

Imagine my horror when I looked in the shrimp tank this morning and saw a totally white shrimp. They nearly all are transparent to some degree normally so it stood out like a sore thumb. It wasn't mottled or anything just very opaque white.

Checked my water parameters immediately and they are as follows:

ammonia 0.25 ppm

nitrite 0 ppm

nitrate 10 ppm

pH 7.8

temp 22.2C/72F

TDS 285

 

I've tried to check how much free ammonia this is using an ammonia calculator and it says 0.007 ppm which doesn't sound so bad. However it does show that something has changed since I last checked the ammonia 2-3 weeks ago when it was 0. The filter was mature when I added these shrimp.

I wasn't sure how to factor in the TDS since the calculator asks for the salinity in terms of conductivity, specific gravity or ppt. So I said 0 since I reckon it's trying to distinguish between fresh and saltwater.

As you can see it was one of the larger shrimp that died, I have my fingers crossed that it was an old one.

 

I am a bit concerned as the shrimp haven't been the same since I added the banana leaves and alder cones just over a week ago altho they are a bit more active now tho not as much as before the addition. The banana leaves and all but 2 alder cones were removed when the water went almost black with tannins and the shrimp looked stunned.

I boiled the banana leaves for 5 mins as per the instructions on the packaging. Could that have released something toxic?

I've only had these shrimp 3-4 weeks and the nitrate has only just begun to settle at around 10 ppm having usually needed water changes every 4-5 days to reduce it from 20-25 ppm. The last water change was a week ago. 

I'm planning to do a big water change today

I have some Tetra Safe Start bacteria in a bottle. Would it be worth adding some in case the beneficial bacteria have somehow been knocked out or should I just do the W/C and see how things go?

My knee jerk reaction was to add some, but now I'm wondering if it would be overkill.

 

Sorry if this all sounds wussy. I may seem unnecessarily concerned over 1 dead shrimp, but I lost all but one shrimp from my first 2 batches of blue pearls within days due to gaps in my knowledge and I was just beginning to relax with these guys. <sigh!>

 

 

 

 

 

[Subtletanks91]

Freshwater has a salinity to it as well just not the same composition as saltwater. Conductixiry is used to determine hoe conductive the wter is. What the salt content is ivelieve. After all remineralizers are a mixture or salt and minerals.

someone please correct me if I'm wrong

[Mamashack]

Thanks, Subtle 

I don't have anything to measure the conductivity, or specific gravity so I've had to go with my gut and assume that salinity means sodium levels rather than calcium/magnesium etc.

I've done about 85% water change - got the TDS back to around 250 from 285 had risen by 35 over a week. I'm assuming the rise due to evaporation. with having the fan on to keep the temp reasonable.

Haven't added any Safe Start yet - will keep a close eye on parameters for the next few days and cross my fingers this death was a one-off.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Shrimp change color awhile after they die.  Some turn red/orange. Some turn whitish.

 

I wouldn't panic just yet.  Sometimes a shrimp dies just because.  As long as you don't have several shrimp dying in a row, it could be just a natural occurrence.

 

You say you already did a water change.  Leave params alone for a while.  Let them adjust and just continue to monitor any changes.

[High5's]

You shouldn't boil, tea, leaves or herb's let them steep in hot water. Like soothing said sometimes shrimp just die. What's your GH and KH at? Those big W/C do more harm than good and can nuke your beneficial bacterial if not done correctly.

[Mamashack]

Haven't got a GH/KH test kit yet, my local LFS hasn't got any and I've been waiting for pay-day to send away for it. TDS was 285 today before the water change.

I've been doing water changes in my other tanks for years so unless there's something different about shrimp tank water changes I hope I'm doing it right by now. I did put a stocking over the end of the syphon to prevent any accidental shrimp removals.

I bitterly regret following the instructions on the banana leaf packet when it said boil for 5-10 mins - I did it for 5 mins. Guess they meant stand in boiling water for that time but that's not what it said on the packet and I can't undo it now. 

Have been watching the others like a hawk today and they all seem to be moving about and not turning opaque.

Fingers crossed it was a "just because"!

[High5's]

If your GH is to low shrimp could get stuck in molt and die, hopefully it was just an isolated death. I would get a GH/KH test kit asap.

[miwu]

Agreed with all that's been said. No need to panic yet. Regarding TDS rising, I top off my water with RO every day especially if there's a fan on the tank. It'll go up by too much if you wait for a week.

[ctaylor3737]

Haven't got a GH/KH test kit yet, my local LFS hasn't got any and I've been waiting for pay-day to send away for it. TDS was 285 today before the water change.

I've been doing water changes in my other tanks for years so unless there's something different about shrimp tank water changes I hope I'm doing it right by now. I did put a stocking over the end of the syphon to prevent any accidental shrimp removals.

I bitterly regret following the instructions on the banana leaf packet when it said boil for 5-10 mins - I did it for 5 mins. Guess they meant stand in boiling water for that time but that's not what it said on the packet and I can't undo it now.

Have been watching the others like a hawk today and they all seem to be moving about and not turning opaque.

Fingers crossed it was a "just because"!

I just rinse off my leaves, never boil them. Best thing to do is check,your parameters and be patient. Best thing to do is keep your hands out of the tank lol. Many people will have a knee jerk reaction and end up hurting the parameters.

[Mamashack]

Thanks everyone. 

I found another dead shrimp this morning and a couple more that allowed themselves to be caught before realising what was happening. So I have an ominous feeling building up. It was another of the big shrimp that died.

The ammonia was again 0.25 ppm this morning and unfortunately before reading these messages I had added some Safe Start bacteria. Tested the tap water and it was a resounding yellow (API 0) so something's compromised the tank somehow.

Could the change in TDS have affected the bacteria in the filter? I don't mean the weekly riise I just described - I mean that previously this filter had been running in water of about 128 ppm but I was advised by the breeder to increase the TDS to 250 using Salty Shrimp prior to getting the shrimp which I did.

There are moltings every day so I don't think that's the problem. I am going to get a GH kit soon tho.

Something else I changed recently out of necessity was the dechlorinator - used to use Tetra Aqua Safe and had to get Fluval Aqua + simply because the LFS had run out of the Tetra one. Having said that it was before I added shrimp to this tank so that hasn't changed since they went in. I know everyone seems to prefer using Prime and when I can I'll get some.

I have been topping up when the water level has noticeably gone down maybe every other day and the TDS has gone up by about 10.

There was also an unplanned dip in temp to 19 when the weather cooled and I wasn't here to observe the temp change. Could that have compromised the shrimp and/or the bacteria?

 

Sorry this is another long post with lots of questions, but I am beginning to get rather concerned now.

[High5's]

Find out if your city uses chloramines they are a derivatives of ammonia and I doubt de chlorinators really lock it up. They can pass through r/o systems that don't have chloramine removal media  and show up as ammonia. From day to day you never know what's coming out the tap, you could try ageing your water a few day's before a water change. No tds wont hurt bacterial colonies but big water changes could if the tank isn't matured.  Invest in test kit's they are invaluable.     

[Soothing Shrimp]

Higher temps can result in bacterial infections.

 

Honestly, from what I'm hearing- it sounds as if something in your tap water has changed.  I had lots of unknown problems when I was using my tap.  I changed to RO and most of the problems were eliminated immediately.

 

You don't even have to buy a system to start.  Just jugs of RO water at the grocery store for water changes will help.

[Mamashack]

I'd already ordered 4 x 20L water carriers and I've found a plant centre about 10 miles from here that sells R.O water at £2.50 for 25L - that's just over $4 I think.

So that's only £8/$13 for the 80L so it won't break the bank. The water carriers should hold enough for a month's water changes, maybe longer and I'll be collecting them and the first lot of R.O water on Thursday. 

I've removed all the leaves and cones etc as someone in another forum suggested that the few shrimp I have probably resulted in loss of bacterial colony and then adding what are essentially rotting leaves/cones could have been a just a bit too much for the bacteria to cope with. It's a possibility I guess.

I'm still going to try the R.O route.

I've just realised that the Salty Shrimp I've got is Bee shrimp GH+. Could that affect these Neos adversely?

[countryboy12484]

Nah i use the same thing for my neos

[Mamashack]

Thanks, countryboy. I haven't a clue what's in there other than remineralizing salts and I assume they would be mainly calcium and magnesium with some trace elements added. Not sure how the different Salty Shrimp products are from each other.

I'm happy to report today that there are no opaque bodies in the shrimp tank this morning and the shrimp seem to be a bit more active.

Still got the 0.25 ppm total ammonia and 0.007 ppm free ammonia in the tank so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

Have removed all leaves and cones - the only thing left in there that could rot is the cholla log. Have to say I'm reluctant to remove that as they seem to like grazing on it from time to time.

Has anyone had any rotting or other problems with cholla logs and how often do you exchange or replace them?

[randy]

I have had things like this with my neos. In a way I think neos are harder to keep than Caridinas because I have my tested method for Caridina but not so much for Neocaridinas. Neos can be super easy or super hard, especially for new tanks and newly imported shrimps.

 

Ammonia is definitely a big NO NO in Neo tank, more so than Caridina because of the high PH. Good luck to your shrimps and hope they will settle down soon.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Randy is absolutely correct.

[Mamashack]

This is a relatively new tank altho the filter was established in another tank first. I wish I'd heard of Glasgarten Bacter AE before I started stocking this tank. I'll definitely get some to increase the biofilm when I have the dosh.

Have got some snowflake food coming tomorrow all being well. So, if they take to the new food, I'll remove the cholla log (in case it's already started to deteriorate altho it's only been in there about 3 weeks.)

I'll also be doing another water change when I've got the R. O. water tomorrow

As I mentioned before the total ammonia of 0.25 ppm is equivalent to 0.0073 ppm free ammonia using the calculator and that also takes into account water pH and temperature.

When I bought these shrimp they were advertised as being easy to keep (not in my experience), tolerating a wide range of parameters (they don't), would eat anything (they don't!) and then once I'd got them was told they actually need quite specific parameters to survive let alone thrive and the wide range was actually worst to best scenario. I'd lost most of 2 lots of neo shrimps before realising what these specific parameters were.

To be fair with this last lot, all seemed hunky dory for over 3 weeks until the first white pearl shrimp died.

[Mamashack]

Good news! There have been no more shrimp deaths for 2 days now and the ammonia is back to 0 ppm!! The only organic stuff left in there are the moss-balls and the cholla logs.

I'm just trying to work out a way to get the leaf litter back in there without triggering another mini-cycle.

I have a spare small tank and filter and am wondering whether to cycle the spare filter using Kleenoff ammonia (no additives) and have the various types of leaf litter in there too so that when the bacteria start to develop they are able to cope with the increase in demand. Then transfer the newly cycled sponge along with the leaf litter. 

I only use internal filters with sponge inserts so could easily be swapped in. Would take a few weeks but it might be worth it. I could always kick-start it with Tetra Safe Start.

Does that sounds feasible?

[Mamashack]

Thanks randy, I hope that liking the post means you agree with it! lol

Have finally got a GH test kit and the tank water is 11⁰dH so I think that's ok. My understanding is it needs to be over 7 for the shrimp to be able to moult comfortably and safely. Is that correct? Not sure how much is too much tho.

 

The snowflake food didn't arrive today, but hopefully it will be here tomorrow. Had to order it from eBay UK in the end, a bit more expensive than you can get it in the US, but I'd like to give it a try as I like the idea that it won't foul the water when left in the tank. I believe that a little bit goes a long way. What would you recommend as a good amount for 11 shrimp in a 19L tank (probably about 16.5L actual water)

 

Got the R.O. water today. If possible, I'd like not to compromise this tank any further than it has been already so what, in your experience/s, is a good proportion of water to replace each time? Ignoring the recent big ones I've done for the ammonia, I'd previously been doing roughly ⅓. Is that reasonable or too much/too little?

[randy]

Mamashack, I liked the post because your good news as your shrimps seem to have settled down a bit more.

 

Personally I think GH 11 is a bit high but still in acceptable range for Neocaridinas.

 

I wouldn't worry if shrimps don't eat introduced food. I've yet to see a shrimp die from starvation and I have killed hundreds of shrimps if not more. If they are healthy they will find stuff to eat. I had a tank of shrimps that weren't doing well, not interested in any food I gave them so I stopped feeding for 2 weeks. That was also in a new tank (cycled for 2 months). Eventually things correct themselves. My belief is that shrimps don't want to die, they will try to survive to their best ability. So when there's a problem in my tanks I tend to do less than more. I have tried many things before when there's a problem in a tank but I think doing less works the same if not better. But that's just me.

 

If the problem in my tank persists for more than a week, I would just move them all to a different tank. That has been the only thing that has worked for me consistently. "Fixing" a tank issue has never seemed to work for me unless for obvious reason.

[Mamashack]

Thanks I am rather relieved that whatever is what seems to have settled.

What GH would you aim for, randy? If I'm changing to R.O.water should I still aim for 250 TDS or use the GH as a guide instead?

[randy]

Thanks I am rather relieved that whatever is what seems to have settled.

What GH would you aim for, randy? If I'm changing to R.O.water should I still aim for 250 TDS or use the GH as a guide instead?

For Neos, I just use my tap water parameters (TDS 175, GH 8, KH5).

 

If I use RO, it would be for my Caridina tanks so I aim for GH 5 (or GH8 for tigers). With Blud Diamond as mineral additive, the TDS is about 140 if started from RO. Since it's much easier to test TDS so I don't test GH often, I just make sure the new water for WC is at around TDS 135-145. I don't freak out if I find the tank has TDS 120 or 180, if I really want I just adjust them back to around 140 very very slowly.

[Mamashack]

My guy are used to TDS 250 so I'd better stick with that.

Unless someone advises differently I'll stick with ⅓ at the water change and try not worry too much if it's not exactly right.

I'm not normally this controlling - in fact for my other tanks I'm quite relaxed about them, but that may be because they are stable and I'm finding this shrimp-keeping journey quite rocky at times.

The optimum parameters the breeder of my white pearls and Justis Saayman from Fancy Shrimp advised to aim for with Neos are:

temp 21⁰ (breeder's advice not Justis' - I'm letting it run between 22 and 24 as the shrimp seem more active in that range)

TDS 250 ppm (sometimes gets up to 280 just before a W/C even after topping up)

Nitrate under 20 ppm (ideally not more than 10 ppm)

ph 7.5 (mine is 7.8 from the tap not sure what it will be with remineralised R.O. water)

GH 7+

[randy]

Yeah, I agree your target parameters are good for Neos.