Soothing Shrimp's Silly Shrimping

[Soothing Shrimp]

OKay, so I figured I'd start a journal here to be added to infrequently, I'm sure. heh

 

I've recently seen a couple new strains hobbyists are working on and I'm very excited more people are trying/experiemnting with selective breeding. 

 

If you read this journal, chances are you'll here me talking about the "trinity" quite a bit.  I'm not talking about religion, (although I do believe deeply what I believe), however in this case I'm talking about 3 main principles that are necessary for selective breeding- more necessary for me perhaps since I tend to have gone a bit overboard.

 

Trinity= 1) Space, 2) Time, 3) Money

 

1) The space pretty much refers to how much space you have devoted to your project.  It may be a nano tank, or a whole room of tanks.  Let's not forget additional space such as any products that take up shelving, storage, cords, walking room, etc.

 

2) Time is referred to for length between shrimplet to berries, developing a true breeding strain, feeding, tank maintenance, shopping (yes even that), learning new information on forums, searching out new techniques, rearranging, netting, actively studying the tanks (important for finding shrimp health, hydra, problems, selecting best quality, etc.) and so on.

 

3) This is often the most important.  Money.  Why money?  Upgrading equipment, foods and suppliments, remineralization products, electricity, etc.  The more space you use, the more money is involved.

 

So, this is why I tend to laugh when people tell me "You must make a lot of money doing this." or "I want to do an aquatics business for a full time job."  Is it possible?  If you have a farm and turn it into a machine that cranks out aquatics, maybe.  But honestly, you get into selective breeding for the love of the challenge to create the best possible product you are able- and HOPE you break even.

 

LOTS(!!!) of sweat, tears, and sometimes blood follows. heh  But, to me it's all worth it.

---

 

New vars are ALWAYS a gamble.  Neo colors are my main interest. 

 

I bought around $400 orange rilis this year.  They were shipped and died on me all in about 2 weeks.  Don't know if it was bad luck, water too different or what.  At some point I'd like to try again.

 

I'm currently very frustrated with the quality coming from big breeders.  Not enough work put into the shrimp strain before releasing them, methinks. 

 

If a hobbyist releases a new strain, I automatically expect to have to work with them to get to a desired goal- let's face it- hobbyists don't have the big budget, staff of people and space to work with that the big breeders do.  Often we have less than a few tanks to work with and many do not want to dedicate selecting and culling from a strain that may be unending for years and years.  I understand that.  I do.

 

Big breeders, however, IMHO at this momant in time care more about being the first to put out a strain than the quality or health of it.  Strains that don't breed true, health issues, too sensative, etc. unfortunately are becoming the norm now it seems like.

 

Lets hope more hobbyists decide to get involved and take matters into their own hands.

[Water7]

Thank you for sharing. This is informative. I too am interested in neos, and there are a lot of variations available. It seems from what I've read that some are harder to keep than others. What is your opinion on this? For instance, are fire red shrimp a little less hardy than lower-grade cherries? Are the blue, yellow, and orange cherries harder to keep or less likely to stay healthy than the red ones? I know this might be hard to answer, but for me, I am not really interested in all the rare or new varieties. I would just like to try something that is likely to do well for me, and likely to form a colony so I can keep them for a long time. 

 

And yes, time, space, and money! That is why I am converting one of my two existing tanks, rather than starting up my 10 (currently a hospital tank, but otherwise unused) as a shrimp tank. These tanks really do take a lot of time, and I feel at this point, two tanks is really the limit for me!

[Soothing Shrimp]

Water, now you know why I use moss. LOL  I have 30+ tanks (40+?  I lose count) atm.

 

Reds are pretty hardy now, no matter how intense.  I'm not sure about the Bloody Mary yet since it is still new on teh market and time will tell.

 

Most sensative cherries in my experience are definately Blue Diamonds and Yellows.  I was SO frustrated with yellows I developed my own strain so they would be hardy.  I ended up working with BD to increase hardiness, but ultimately I ended up selling them so I could focus on other projects.

 

The various strains of Blues (Blue Velvets, Carbons, my Sapphires) and Pumpkins all are pretty hardy as well.  IN fact, most other colors of Cherries do pretty well.

 

Orange rilis I'm up in the air about.  I just don't know on how sensative they are.  It could be that they were just not in great health by the time they got to me in cold weather.  So are they sensative?  Honestly I don't know.  If someone else could chime and and tell us both, it would be nice. heh

[Merth]

In my limited experience I would agree cherries are like cockroaches hard to kill and hard to stop reproducing. My blue velvets are just getting established but seem to be equally as hardy. After 3 months and a couple different sources I have my first berried yellow. I have lost at least half if not more of the yellows during this time (mind you all params are the same in these tanks). My chocolates are in crs params and although I lost most in the big crash some have survived. They seem to be very hardy tho its definitely true the conditions ideal for crs were not condusive for the neos to thrive. They are getting their own tank and time will tell.

[Art by Stef*]

"Catch yourself a couple more shrimp, son, and you might get a cocktail!"

 

Unless you are breeding cattle or something, you can never make grand money on breeding animals.

You may get lucky, like happen to have the "flavor of the month" in stock, but it will be short lived, especially

on such a touchy critter to upkeep. If the experts/breeders are having a hard time with them, then the 

general hobby person who just wants them as pets and find them not so hardy, get a bad taste in their mouth

at shelling out $6 and up a piece, they perish, and are hesitant to try more.

 

I used to show persian cats. Sold some of my kittens for over $1,000 each, depending on the quality/litter/parents.

People would think I was rolling in dough. Who pays over a grand for a cat? You can get one for free!  When you figure it out, adding in all show fees, gas,

vet bills, food, grooming, but most of all TIME, I didn't even break even. Persians have very few kittens in a litter, and the show

quality ones have big heads, which, like bulldogs, means C-section a lot of times. Expensive.

 

Same with dogs. If you have the "breed of the year" or the current designer dog, goldendoodles or something, you may do well

on a few litters, but to make it a business, I wouldn't bet on it. And people paying big bucks for dogs and horses usually have

a large pocketbook to begin with for their hobby.

 

And a piece of advice I got from a vet friend years ago proved valuable to me.

When I was breeding persians, it seemed like their was always some kitten sick or dying after a while.

I was at the vets once a week. I had a CFA "Cattery of Excellence", which means the vet comes to your house and

inspects on pop visits. (Didn't matter anyway, I was friends with a few vets, a vet tech, and some would come over once a week for

dinner) My bloodlines were excellent, the parent cats health excellent, what the hell is going on?

 

Her words: "Stef, did you ever see a family that has a few kids, 4 or more? There's always going to be

one with a snotty nose. The more you have, the more are going to get sick, no matter what good care you give them."

 

You should breed only if you are totally into the animal, whether it's shrimp or shih tzu, not expecting to make

big bucks, but having it on hand because you will need it, and if you break even, or make some pocket change

delight in it!

 

Soothing, you are right with the big breeders. They are comparable to puppy mills in the fact of supply and demand.

Breed as many as possible, get them out as fast as possible. If they perish en route, they have plenty of back up

to pacify you, on your shipping fee nickel. If they perish a month later, well, it must be something the new owner did wrong.

So sorry. Same thing with fish at pet chain stores. Neon tetras are first that comes to mind.

 

I am repeating myself by saying I always wanted CRS. Not to breed, just like looking at them.

I refuse to even attempt them at the high prices they cost. When hobbists can breed consistent hardy

strains, and they are more affordable to me, then I will attempt.

But, looking at my neo pumpkins shining like amber in my little tank has been satisfying me just the same, methinks

 

-Stef*

[Soothing Shrimp]

Low grade CRS now is roughly the price of neos.  Not bad to play with.

 

Great analogies about the cats!

 

Excellent words of insight folks.  BTW, this may be my journal, but I welcome insights.  My main reason for doing a journal is to encourage others to try selective breeding too.  Doesn't really matter what kind of shrimp you may be interested in- just better the strain you like. If someone as unremarkable as me is able to play with this, you can too!

 

This reminds me of someone several years ago I was talking to on a forum that told me they were breeding their ghost shrimp for more color and health.  Someone else immediately wrote something to the tune of "Why?  They're only a few cents each."  I kind of stared at that reply for awhile until I wrote and encouraged the OP to continue with their project and more power to them.

 

What does it matter how much an animal costs if you have a passion for trying to improve on it?  I know breeders who sell pinto shrimp for $500+ each, and people who breed scuds for the challenge.  They both have passion and more power to them! 

---

 

Speaking of breeding strains, I have my Nessies that I'm breeding currently in the hopes of releasing an extremely limited number early summer of 2014. 

 

I just got a deal at a local thrift store for a 20g for $8.  The catch?  It obviously held some kind of small pocket pet mammal.  So, some scraping of urine minerals, a sloppy re-silicone on the seams, and now I'm setting up 20g this payday to cycle for the Nessies to go into for more stable water params.  Still have to buy a cover for it, which means more money though.  Having this incredibly rare strain in only a single tenner is making me a bit nervous in case God forbid some tragedy happens.  Some months ago I made the extremely risky move of consolidating my Nessie tanks into one tenner for  more breeding since breeding had halted.  Glad to say it's beginning to work, but as said- EXTREMELY RISKY!

 

Currently I'm just trying to breed as many as I can so I have some to work with.  Current estimate is less than 100 Nessies exist in the world.  (Since I'm the only one that has them, I know that for a fact. LOL)  Move them into the 20g, and I'll be able to use the current tenner as one of many in the future to house the best of the best for the highest grade selective breeding.  

 

I hesitate even to think about how much money I've spent over the last several years on this project alone while trying to come closer to perfecting the strain!...and people ask how come new vars of shrimp are so expensive when they are first introduced. LOL  Grumble as one may, the hobby breeder still has to use the delayed money for maintenance!

 

The trinity strikes again.

[Art by Stef*]

Let me ask you Soothing, since I'm new to shrimp, and for future reference, how does one go about culling or separating?

Not that I am anywhere near that. I am joyful because I spotted a saddle on a female.

If one gets A berry, I think I will crack open the eggnog again

 

Do you just let them breed and separate the highly desired to hopefully breed again in another tank,

or do you remove the ones not up to par and put them in another tank and hope they will produce

what you are looking for? (Like breeding a dull female guppy?)

Or do you inbreed the prodigy back to the originals?

 

Also, does a strain get "overbred" and how and when do you add new blood?

 

-Stef*

[Soothing Shrimp]

Culling is done in the same way you do for guppies, I'm sure.  Lots of different ways all leading to the same goal.

 

Two of the most simplistic is

 

1) Use a tank for community breeding, and remove the ones that don't fit your criteria.

 

2) Another way is to remove the ones that are exceptional to another tank.

 

The advantage of the 2nd way is that you can have more than one tank breeding in community groups to try to produce the 1% (or less) you will move over to your best tank to get closer to your goal.

 

Lots of pros and cons of course.  The largest con in the 2nd method is that you are moving your best shrimp from one water param to another and something tragic may happen in introduction.  At least in the 1st method you know they are already in the water they are used to.

 

When people write me and say they only have a small tank to selectively breed and they don't want additional tanks, my response is simple.  Breed the colony to about 100 or so, then cull all except the best 10 that meet your goal.  Then repeat again and again.

 

Which brings us to the next portion of selective breeding...when to do it?

 

I find there are two good times to cull- and it can depend on the strain and your goal.  The first time is juvie.  Often by the time they get to this stage you can tell if they will meet your goal or not.  This is usually with pattern.  Also- depending on strain- color intensity or shade may be apparent as well.

 

Young adult will provide you best information on color intensity.  Some strains may look great as juvies, and color lightens by adulthood, or the reverse such as PFR not showing best color until first berry or two.

 

You really have to figure out your goal, learn to understand your strain, and then be "ruthless" in your selecting.

 

I used to breed small mammals and knew new blood had to be added to avoid problems by inbreeding.

 

The nice thing about shrimp is that studies have gone on for years showing that inbreeding in dwarf shrimp has had no ill effects.  This is without adding new blood.

 

Here's a quick quote from the scientific paper from GENETIC DIVERSITY STATUS OF WHITE SHRIMP Litopenaeus vannamei BROODSTOCKS IN MEXICO by Ricardo Perez-Enriquez, Fidencio Hernandez-Martinez, Pedro Cruz*, Manuel Grijalva-Chon, Josefina Ramos-Paredes, Fernando Mendoza-Cano

Centro de Investigaciones Bioldel Noroeste, S.C. (CIBNOR)
Mar Bermejo 195, Col. Playa Palo Santa Rita, La Paz, Baja California Sur, Mexico 23090

"Management practices for almost 10 generations since the introduction of a single stock from Venezuela to Mexico, had permitted the broodstocks to retain high levels of genetic diversity. "

A decrease in the number of alleles were also not found.

 

So, if it makes one feel better to add new blood- then do it.  However it is not necessary.

[Art by Stef*]

Very  iinnnn-ter-rest-tink!

 

Very informative. For those who opt not to have multiple tanks, and risk losing shrimps to different water qualities,

could one place a tank-in-a-tank, a betta chimney, or divider? Put the prizes or culls in a chimney and release (or cull) when the population is satisfactory?

I would think chimneys would be ideal for smaller tanks, and one could put mesh on the air hole/where it breeches the water line?

Any pros and cons or divider ideas for using the same tank?

 

-Stef*

[Soothing Shrimp]

"For those who opt not to have multiple tanks, and risk losing shrimps to different water qualities,

could one place a tank-in-a-tank, a betta chimney, or divider? Put the prizes or culls in a chimney and release (or cull) when the population is satisfactory?"

 

 

Never tried it.  Interesting concept though.  I have used the in-tank mesh box, and it got filled with crud too much for my liking.  Let me know if your idea works though.

 

Some shrimpers use breeding boxes/fry savers as a box to keep shrimp in for selective breeding.  I tried that and was unhappy with that as well.  The HOB breed boxes were too easy for the shrimp to get out the overflow.  When I used 2g tanks, the shrimp would not breed.  I *think* because they felt trapped since they grew up in tenners.

 

I have thought of using dividers, however there is a challenge there, too.  The typical dividers have slide in sides.  These, baby shrimp can get around.  Porous sponges- baby shrimp can sometimes get through, and adults will sometimes climb over.

 

The best theory I have had of late is to use a water bridge to connect tanks for more gallons for water stability and similar params.  I've not put this into affect as of yet though- so a theory is all it is.  Using the same line of thinking, one could use a gallon tank/pickle jar and water bridge for a holding tank with stable params that are known to the shrimp as well.

[Water7]

Thank you Soothing Shrimp and Merth for addressing my question about color varieties of neos. It's very helpful. At this time I am planning on red cherries, unless something else turns out to be more readily available.

 

It's also very interesting about the fact that it is not interesting to add "new blood" to your shrimp colony. That's actually wonderful news, because I had always read that this was something you had to do.

 

And yes--30 to 40 tanks is phenomenal. It must be a tremendous amount of work.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Water, we all have to help each other.

 

Made a boo boo last water change and did it too rapidly in my Nessie tank.  This week I found mass moltings and 5 molts had full berries in them.  So about 100 eggs will never make it to fry.  *bonks head against wall."

 

Now, I'm having a small problem with params, so another water change this time via my sensitive shrimp water change method.  Dripping in new water like acclimation... I'm not a patient person, so this drives me crazy. LOL

[Soothing Shrimp]

My Nessies have been dying off.  4 more in the last two days.    Without even testing, I'm sure some ammonia is there because of dead shrimp bodies I have been pulling out/disintigrated, but if I do another major water change, I'm not sure the shrimp can handle it and I may lose more than if I did nothing (!)....

 

As a desperate measure, I'm really thinking of throwing some into the new uncycled 20g set up.  I'm hoping the large water body and low number of shrimp/low bioload will allow them to be healthy.  I have to get a heater for the 20g first though.

 

In short, if I can save even 5-10, the mutation will not be lost and I can rebuild a population.

 

Remember the blood, sweat and tears part of selective breeding?  This is one of the things that causes tears.

[Art by Stef*]

I'm so sorry, Bryce

Divide the remainder in various settings/tanks and leave some in the original if you can.

 

I lost Big Bubbles, my giant betta, yesterday. He jumped the tank even with protective plastic cross stich mesh on top.

Lost one 2 days prior, an older female (the plakat he/she?) because I didn't have her tank covered, so I thought I learnt by my mistake,

and everyone got a cover. 

 

Seems like when there is luck with one species/tank, there is misfortune in another.

The more you have syndrome. Just always seems like it's the favorites ;(

 

The cold weather has curbed any fish sales.

For once I am glad. I was going to sell one of Big Bubbles sons-there's two I am holding on to and was going to sell the one that looked most like him

because I had him. Change of plans.

 

If you gave/sold any Nessies in the past, I would contact and see if there are any you can recoup when you have things back to normal.

 

-Stef*

[Soothing Shrimp]

Thanks Steph.  I've been trying to figure out other tanks as well.  You and I think very much alike. 

 

Plus, after some placed in other tanks, I think I'm going to risk a 50% wc as well in the original tank.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your recent challenges too, though.

[Darkcobra]

Just found this thread, but Stef has told me about your breeding program for these shrimp before.  Very sorry to hear about your losses.

 

I wonder if an ammonia adsorbent, like Ammo Carb, would help get your tank through the current crisis.

 

I've never tried it personally, and it's actually very difficult to get good info on things like this.  Mention a "crutch" on a forum and the typical response is always "you don't need that, just set up and maintain the tank properly".  True enough, but when Murphy strikes you gotta have a backup plan.  I like to have many, and this one has been in the back of my mind as an alternative to Prime (which only temporarily binds ammonia, and soon releases it).

[Soothing Shrimp]

Certainly an idea.  I'm low on moola right now for shrimping, so I'm off to wade through 3 feet+ of snow and drive to Walmart to get a cheap heater for a 10g and switch that out with a digital one made for 20g+ I had put into my guppy tank as a standby (and put teh digital one actually into the 20g.).

 

I'll see if they have some kind of ammonia lock tangible, too.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Back.  I got the heater, ammo carb, and pantyhose.  Although they would prob look quite good on me, I plan to put teh ammo carb in them and hang them in the tank behind the air sponge filter so some movementof water goes by.

 

Holding off on the wc, and am hoping the ammo carb does the trick to stop deaths atm....

[MABJ]

Best of luck. Sorry to hear about the losses, but I know you'll pull through. Perhaps those nessies were inferior stock anyways. You know I'll be pulling for you.

[Soothing Shrimp]

Thank MABJ.  You mean like survival of the fittest?  You could be correct.  I wish I had more for breeding though.  

[Art by Stef*]

Too funny on the pantyhose. Thigh highs, added support, or elegance? 

Good to see you are still keeping it silly in the event of a crisis.

Prayers with you.

-Stef*

[Merth]

Just a quick tidbit when looking for "stockings" to be used as media bags...check out the dollar store. they always have them and extremely cheap!

[Soothing Shrimp]

Thanks for prayers Stef.

 

 I was actually debating on fishnets or hose. LOL  Really.    But I figured the media is too small for the holes this time in the fish nets.  Ceramic rings may work in them though...or a hairnet.

 

Thanks for the tip Merth.  I actually found some cheaper accidently.  I went to Walgreens and I found some for 1.50 and was about to walk away, and then saw on the very bottom shelf they had the little clear plastic bubbles (like in vending machines) with calf high hose for .69 ea.  I figured, no cutting, just tie a knot after filling.  Cool.  So I grabbed them.  2 for $1.  Not bad.  In black yet.

 

Just looked in teh tank...no more dead....fingers crossed!

[Puddles]

Ugh terrible news. I hope it turns out ok. I hate to see you lose something you have poured your heart into. Hopefully they survive and breed again and maybe we can spread the gene pool to other people as insurance?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Soothing Shrimp]

Puddles, that's exactly what I am hoping to do. 

 

I learned the hard way from breeding projects before, that if tragedy strikes- the whole strain or project is gone.

 

I want to make sure I can spare some from breeding first. Right now every one gone means less genes to form any type of colony.  And with 100+ berries dropped, and ~15-20 deceased, that's a lot to make up. *sigh*

 

Good news!  With the ammocarb, no more deaths today!!!!!!!  YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks for the idea DarkCobra.  I'm just now expanding into fish, and I see there's some crossover that will be helpful with shrimp as well.  About the only thing I hear about is Prime, buffer soils, remin and Purigen in shrimping.

 

Next move is to move some over to the 20g.  Hoping to do so by the end of next week.  Pro: Lots of room to feed'n'breed.  Con: Finding each other when fem has molted.