Charis Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I am completely new to shrimp and ordered some Orange Rilis, Blue Dreams and CRS at the start of December. They each have their own 10G planted tank, were acclimatized slowly and had been doing well over all. Lately, I have started having an increased number of shrimp deaths in my Orange Rili tank and now one death in my Blue Dream tank. The first death was the day before Christmas. It's possible two more died and were eaten while I was away of the holidays and since being back there was one death yesterday and again today. I also have one that looks like it will be dead tomorrow. There are no noticeable physically changes in the shrimp's appearance. They are still perfectly colored and no missing parts! They seem to get more lethargic, sitting in the open and then more clumsy, almost like they are dragging their front legs a bit. Slowly they die and end up on their backs and sides. Ugh. Two batches of shrimplets hatched over the holiday and there are a ton of them in the tank. As far as I can tell, I don't see any dead shrimplets on the floor. I would have thought they would be the most susceptible to anything. I'm feeding NLS Grow. I have tried spinach leaves, algae tabs and a veggie food, but the shrimp only seem to actually want to eat the Grow. There isn't any copper in the ingredients, but maybe there is something else bad I should be looking for? I feed every 2-3 day and clean up whatever they haven't eaten within a couple of hours. My water parameters were: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, TDS 222, pH 7.9, KH 7, GH 9. I'm using a RO, tap water mix and the tap water is treated with Prime. My only unknown is Nitrate.... so that could be off. Temp is 74-75F. Today I did a 25% water change and it has dropped the GH to 8, KH to 6 and the TDS to 190. The tanks are filtered by a sponge filter and I have been adding what has evaporated each week via drip method. I had read I should just replace evaporated water as opposed to actual water changes, but maybe I should be doing these?Any ideas what in the world is going on?! I'm very tempted to do a huge water change to get whatever it is out of the tank! But, I know shrimp don't really like water changes! Should I pull the shrimp and put them in a different tank?! Would that be helpful? It would be possible with the adult, but the shrimplets would have to be left.Any advice would be very appreciated! CiaraHono and Edwardnah 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metageologist Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yes if your nitrates are high that could be your problem. How link were these tanks setup before you introduced the shrimp. I would deffinatly get a test kit for that. Also you don't need to keep your rank that warm 70 is fine or as low as 60. Charis and evabug1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquariumlover10 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Is it a calcium deficiency? The babies wouldn't need as much so won't be affected, but I am still not 100% as too what the tds gh and kh do. Charis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyeGuy411 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I have a feeling if you were to test nitrates they would be the culprit. If you have not been doing regular water changes the nitrates are probably building up and shrimp are extra sensitive to them. I had mystery deaths in one of my Neo tanks and that ended up being the issue nitrates were at 80-100. Did a number of small water changes over a couple weeks and added a bag of Purigen. Now nitrates stay at 0 and no new deaths for over a couple months. Charis and evabug1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 All good points. You have a sponge filter. Do you clean it often? You may be washing away the beneficial bacteria as well. Check the Nits and let us know if that is okay. If not, let us continue to help troubleshoot with you. After all, we want your shrimping is a good experience. --- On a wacky note, when I used tap with my shrimp- all params seems to be pretty good, however I still had dying off for unknown reasons. The week I started using RO, the dying off stopped. All the tests we do still don't tell everything that is in the water, and sometimes it is the unknowns that cause problems. evabug1, Duque and Charis 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evabug1 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Welcome to the addiction Charis! An API Freshwater Master Test Kit is what I would recommend. You'll be able to test ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and ph. I've read that orange rili's can be extra sensitive. Getting some floaters like frogbit or red root can help with keeping nitrates down. I don't know what kind of filtration you have running, but if you have an HOB filter adding Purigen like RyeGuy411 suggested won't hurt. You might also add some bee balls to help with any impurities you're dealing with. Check out the Sponsors section of the forum for the plants and bee balls among other things shrimpers use. You already have 3 colonies of shrimp going so I definitely suggest saving up for an RO system as Soothing suggested. That's what I'm doing. It will be a great investment! Until then you could get a heavy duty plastic jug like people use for saltwater tanks and fill them up with RO (or a new 5 gallon bucket with a lid from Home Depot for example) from an RO/DI vending machine for cheap. Use that to do your small water changes and eventually they'll all be 100% RO. Charis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenteam Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 If all your tanks are the same parameters then I would be concerned about CRS unless you purchase them from someone who raised them in tap water. When you topoff are you using Tap or RO? If you just add Tap water then you slowly can creep up parameters without even knowing. I had TDS go from 250 up to 380 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charis Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thank you all so much for your input! I really appreciate all of the help. I have REALLY enjoyed the shrimp and I feel terribly that I seem to be killing them off. I just ran out and got the Nitrate Test. Unfortunately, the reading in both tanks is zero. Either that means I'm doing the test incorrectly, the test isn't working or the Nitrates are truly zero. I feeling like it's not possible that they are zero. I would prefer that they be grossly out of whack because then I know what the problem is. They have not expired and I read the instructions very carefully and shook the bottle and test tube for the required duration. I even repeated the test. I realized that I failed to mention that I do have an RO unit. I have been using half RO/half tap treated with Prime for my water additions which gives a lower TDS (approx 100, GH and KH) than what is in the tanks and adding it in via drip. For the CRS I have been using RO remineralized with Salty Shrimp for CRS. After reading your responses, I think I should just get the Salty Shrimp for Neos and forget the tap water. It's not a lot more work and it would take some guess work out of where the problems could be coming from. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get that for a little while due to my schedule and matching that up with the gentleman who sell it. I haven't mentioned the CRS tank parameters because so far, they seem to be doing fine. It's just the Neos that have an issue, at this point. I hadn't thought of using Purigen to help with the problem. That is a great idea because I have it readily available in my fish room! I'll get that set up shortly. Since my water changes, yesterday, I haven't had any more deaths, but I'd say there are still some shrimp that look still look lethargic and out of sorts. I still do not feel that all is well in the tanks. I am still counting a ton of shrimplets and not seeing any dead ones… but I don't think I fully understand what the problem is yet. I wish the Nitrate test had come out higher. I'm going to test a bunch of my other tanks now and see if I can get a reading over 0 to rule out a bad test set. If it were a calcium deficiency, would I be seeing molting issues? So far, I don't believe any of the death were related to molting… and I do see lots of nice clean molts around the tanks with frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyeGuy411 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 The nitrate tests will often read zero if the reagent bottle #2 isn't shaken sufficiently. I don't just shake the bottle I literally beat it on a table or hard object upside down. There is an extremely thick layer of sludge in the bottom of the bottle that requires intense shaking to get mixed properly. Charis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charis Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Ha ha! I thought I gave it a very vigorous shaking… but I will pretend I'm a paint mixing machine for a bit and teach it a few lessons! Maybe I'll will get a different reading after all! aquariumlover10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metageologist Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Once your arm feels like it's ready to fall off your almost there. chibikaie and aquariumlover10 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Also I'll add that SS gh+ is fine for neos. I tried SS gh/kh and went back to gh+. Heck, I can use it for both my neos and crystals. Duque and Charis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charis Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, Nitrate testing is clearly not my skill area! I'm still getting 0s despite shaking bottle two to death. I'll get my husband to give it a try when he gets home. Maybe I got one that sat on the shelf long enough to congeal! In better news, the Blue Dreams are looking good and happy. I thought the males were zipping around the tank, celebrating the water change, but it must have been because my saddled females were molting. Now I have three berried females instead of one and everyone seems active. So, I'm happy with that tank. I ended up finding a dead Orange Rili yesterday. So, that is unfortunately. I did add the Purigen last night and I'd say they are more active today. I still think they are not acting normally, however. The purigen is already starting to change color a bit, so it's great to see it's pulling stuff from the water. I'll contine to try to test the nitrates, but in the meantime, I think I'll do anouther 10% water change tonight. It's great to know that I can use the SS GH+ for the neos. They don't mind the lack of KH? I also discovered that NLS Grow and NLS for invertibrates has 98% of the same ingredients in the same order... so it's a relief that I haven't been feeding them sometime totally unacceptable. Next time I visit the "shrimp supplier" in town, I'll pick up a few more feeding options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Lack of kh hasn't been a problem for mine for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindygao0217 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think more small amount of water change each day will help because the shrimp is very sensitive with large water it will scare the shrimp also the tds should be 169-200is higher it really hard for the shrimp to molt maybe that the reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Molting has more to do with gh than TDS. Also many shrimpers stay away from frequent water changes because the params will swing even in small amounts. Duque 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charis Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Two more shrimp have died, one in the Orange Rili tank and one in the Dream Blue tank. Since the Purigen is bubbling away in there, the ammonia and nitrites are still zero (I rechecked), that leaves only the nitrates (which I have tried to resolve with my water changes)... and the NEW problems that I discovered! My pH is much higher than I thought. I had been testing with my kit, which only goes to 7.8, and stupidly felt good with my 7.8 reading. I bought the high pH kit when I purchased my Nitrate testing kit, just to make sure. Well, I guess the pH in the Rili and Dream tanks is 8.1/8.2. So... that could be the problem. I also retested the CRS tank and it's sitting at 7.8! Pretty shocking that they are doing as well as they are. So... how in the world do I solve this!? The CRS are already in pure RO remineralized with the SS GH+ to a TSD of 100. Unfortunately, my amazonia substate is still leaching ammonia and is in a different tank until it's finished with that process. In the meantime, they are in a bare bottomed tank with lots of driftwood and IALs to buffer the pH down. It doesn't seem to be working. I don't really understand why the pH has ended up being so high with the properly remineralized RO water and everything in the tank leaching pH reducing tannins. Any ideas what else I can do to stabilize the problem? Simular situations with the neo tanks. They have been in half RO/half tap and the tap water is likely around this same pH or a little higher. Even if I switch them to completely remineralized RO, the pH will still end up being as high as the CRS tank. They also have driftwood and IALs, but they do have a neutral black sand substrate and some river rocks. Other than waiting for the amazonia substrate to finish leaching it's ammonia and adding it too all of the tanks, is there anything else I can do to fix this pH problem? Do most people keep their neos on some sort of pH buffering substrate? What is the highest pH they can tolerate? Any other ideas what else might be going on with these shrimp? In good news, a blue dream female had her eggs hatched today. I had the good fortune of coming home from my night shift in the dark, turning on the light over the tank and seeing them scattering from her. I just hope they can survive when the adults are having trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 If the crs are breeding for you, and babies are surviving, I wouldn't touch anything for them. There are many people who would LOVE to have higher ph crs, and you could be able to help the hobby quite a bit. chibikaie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duque Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Charis, I add Mosura TDS Up when my Salty Shrimp GH+ doesn't provide a high enough TDS for certain species of shrimp. There are other products out there. Whatever you choose, it's helpful to have it on hand. * By the way, when adding either SS GH+ or TDS UP, I always premix them in an empty (and clean) small soda bottle or Gatorade bottle. Just add the powder, fill it 1/2 way with RO water (so there's room to make "waves") and shake it for about 15 - 20 minutes. That way, you can see if all of the particles have dissolved. Soothing, You mentioned that molting has more to do with GH versus TDS. Could you explain that a little bit for all of us? I still don't know the exact process of and conditions for proper molting. I assume Charis might want to understand this to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Duque, to be honest, I'm not sure the reason. This is from my observation only. Perhaps your results differ? When I have changed my gh and kept TDS, I almost always had molts. However when TDS changed and kept gh, I didn't see many. This was early on in my shrimping when I was forcing molts. Now, if I need to force molts I do so by doing a cool wc. EDIT: I *do* know that more gh makes thicker shells, and less gh makes thinner shells. No idea if this has anything to do with it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdragon Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Is your tank even cycled? I really recommend to ask the gentleman whoever sell to you to give you of his waters and/or ask the parameters. Ask him how he setup the shrimp tank because shrimp easily die from different parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdragon Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I'm a beginner too and i learned from research and forums and i probably killed like 50 shrimps. But before u buy anymore expensive shrimps, buy cherry shrimps to test the water. They are around .50-1.00 each. I usually found them on craigslist. If you live in LA come to me i will give you some cherry shrimps. =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadenlea Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Wait.... is it even possible to have a ph over 8 with half RO water? That would make your tap....... wouldnt it make it illegal? heh. Why don't you try changing on tank over to ALL RO water and see if that helps. Do small water changes daily and just add back RO water Something just isnt making sense with the testing. Neos shouldnt mind the high PH and the CRS should yet the CRS are breeding and the neos are dying... I know nothing about RO units. Could it not be workiing or need a new filter or something. none of this seems to make sense. Of course I am no chemist so listen to soothing and others over anything I say They are the experts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadenlea Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 (9th does have a point.. Did the tank every fully cycle? That is one way nitrates could be at zero and if most of the shrimp have died, the ammonia might be close to zero also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMG Aquatics Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Wait.... is it even possible to have a ph over 8 with half RO water? I can have 2.5 G of RO/DI water at 6.2 PH and take one cup of tap water to make it 7.6PH Charis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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