Looking for some clarification on all the different varieties of blue neocaridina shrimp.

[JuanSan]

Hi everyone! I have gotten royally confused with all the different varieties of blue neos that are available. I understand that they are from different lines of breeding, but I am looking for a more cohesive  source to have a picture to the name of the shrimp. 

 

I started here and found some pictures of the blue neos that were available but it seems incomplete:

 

Planet Inverts Breeding Guide

 

So what I decided to do is to post the ones that I do know and hope that you can help me fill in the blanks!

1) Blue rili shrimp

2) Blue cobalt shrimp

3) Blueberry shrimp

4) Blue pearl shrimp

 

Other names that I have heard: Blue velvet, Blue dream, Blue diamond, Blue jelly, Blue carbon. 

 

Are some of these names synonymous? Please help fill in any missing names and maybe a picture so that I can make a  cohesive guide! Thanks in advance!

[JuanSan]

Anyone?

[ohmiko]

Blue Velvet

 

Blue Dream

Blue Diamond

Blue Jelly

Carbon Rili which I guess has a blue body variant too

 

[ohmiko]

the photo you have for blue rili is more commonly known as BBRR or Blue Body Red Rili.

 

There's a person on craigslist in my area that claims to sell Royal blue shrimp but it's not Royal blue Tiger, just Neo. So I would assume it's blue dreams he's selling

[JuanSan]

20 hours ago, ohmiko said:

the photo you have for blue rili is more commonly known as BBRR or Blue Body Red Rili.

 

There's a person on craigslist in my area that claims to sell Royal blue shrimp but it's not Royal blue Tiger, just Neo. So I would assume it's blue dreams he's selling

Really appreciate the great pictures! that certainly makes some sense. 

[ohmiko]

No problem! and if I had to recommend a blue one you must have, Blue jelly is amazing. It's almost a fantasy blue. Kind of like it's glowing I had one that I got for $3. Very cool on dark substrate

[JuanSan]

I have a tank of blue dreams atm but in the future, i may do a rack of neos and have several varieties. I posted this topic to another forum and got an awesome neo genetic tree that was super insightful as well.

[ohmiko]

3 hours ago, JuanSan said:

I have a tank of blue dreams atm but in the future, i may do a rack of neos and have several varieties. I posted this topic to another forum and got an awesome neo genetic tree that was super insightful as well.

Whoa can you show me!! I'm so confused with all the neos still hahaha and the one I saw online had errors 

[nicpapa]

See and topaz blue...

 

its like dream but most dakr blue.

[JuanSan]

6 hours ago, ohmiko said:

Whoa can you show me!! I'm so confused with all the neos still hahaha and the one I saw online had errors 

See pics!

3 hours ago, nicpapa said:

See and topaz blue...

 

its like dream but most dakr blue.

Ugh i want some!!! So freaking beautiful.  

[Mr. F]

Those breeding guides/tables are kinda silly. The tree you've probably seen is a better way of visualizing it. The lineage of the shrimp is most important in cross breeding; if the shrimp come from different wildtypes (WTs), they'll likely throw WT shrimp when interbred, because the genes for their pigmentation are on separate loci (positions on the genome), and therefore are not expressed. The tree below helps, although it does have some inaccuracies. 

The most pertinent inaccuracies are:

• Where you see it says "blue velvet," these are actually "blue dream."
• Where it says "blue dream/topaz" are sometimes called "fantasy blues" (I've also heard these AND blue dreams called "topaz," so not sure about that).
• Where it says "red rili blue" is your "BBRR" or "blue-bodied red rili" (or as you called it "blue rili," although this is a name usually given to carbon line rilis [blue carbon rilis]). 
• "Blue velvet" should be in place of where it says "blue jelly/full blue rili." As I understand it, blue jellies is a phenotype of TB (Caridina cantonensis), where as above are all Neocaridina davidi, with the exception of N. palmata (blue pearls, etc). Blue jelly TB/tibee:

So, you'll notice blue variations come from 3 of the 4 N. davidi WTs and also from N. palmata WT, along with the myriad blue caridina (TB and tiger) morphs, meaning there can be A LOT of confusing, mislabelled, misnamed shrimp out there.

But for the most part with neos, blue dreams, carbon rilis, blue carbon rili, etc are of the same carbon lineage. Blue velvet are from red lineage. Blue pearl are from palmata lineage.

And there is also Soothing's blue and green Nessie from a darker blue mutant arising from red lineage that I have had the chance to breed:

Sorry for the info-overload, but I hope it helps a little!

Nick

 

[JuanSan]

4 minutes ago, Mr. F said:

Those breeding guides/tables are kinda silly. The tree you've probably seen is a better way of visualizing it. The lineage of the shrimp is most important in cross breeding; if the shrimp come from different wildtypes (WTs), they'll likely throw WT shrimp when interbred, because the genes for their pigmentation are on separate loci (positions on the genome), and therefore are not expressed. The tree below helps, although it does have some inaccuracies. 

The most pertinent inaccuracies are:

• Where you see it says "blue velvet," these are actually "blue dream."
• Where it says "blue dream/topaz" are sometimes called "fantasy blues" (I've also heard these AND blue dreams called "topaz," so not sure about that).
• Where it says "red rili blue" is your "BBRR" or "blue-bodied red rili" (or as you called it "blue rili," although this is a name usually given to carbon line rilis [blue carbon rilis]). 
• "Blue velvet" should be in place of where it says "blue jelly/full blue rili." As I understand it, blue jellies is a phenotype of TB (Caridina cantonensis), where as above are all Neocaridina davidi, with the exception of N. palmata (blue pearls, etc). Blue jelly TB/tibee:

So, you'll notice blue variations come from 3 of the 4 N. davidi WTs and also from N. palmata WT, along with the myriad blue caridina (TB and tiger) morphs, meaning there can be A LOT of confusing, mislabelled, misnamed shrimp out there.

But for the most part with neos, blue dreams, carbon rilis, blue carbon rili, etc are of the same carbon lineage. Blue velvet are from red lineage. Blue pearl are from palmata lineage.

And there is also Soothing's blue and green Nessie from a darker blue mutant arising from red lineage that I have had the chance to breed:

Sorry for the info-overload, but I hope it helps a little!

Nick

 

 This is easily the best explanation that I have received on this topic. Do you have any resources that I can read on the genetics of the shrimp or just more in depth guides? I have torn apart most if not all of the primary websites and resources  from Reddit and planet inverts.

[Mr. F]

1 hour ago, JuanSan said:

 This is easily the best explanation that I have received on this topic. Do you have any resources that I can read on the genetics of the shrimp or just more in depth guides? I have torn apart most if not all of the primary websites and resources  from Reddit and planet inverts.

Unfortunately, there hasn't been much legitimate scientific work done on Neocaridina, especially in relation to their pigment genes and inheritance patterns. Most of what is out there is papers on their anatomy and how they make good models for certain studies of molecular mechanisms. Most of what the information you get is anecdotal and through independent (hobbyist) experimentation; this is no different. So, you can take it with a grain of salt if you'd like, but I am certain my info is valid as I have seen a lot of it proven time and time again and many of the members here can verify with their experiences and maybe give a little more info. I hope that the lab I work at, although it is a marine lab, will allow me to do a bit of work on these topics in a legitimate scientific setting soon. Especially since it would be relatively inexpensive and easy. 

But, I'll take a look next week when I get a chance to roll onto campus and grab as many papers on neocaridina and caridina as I can.

[JuanSan]

7 hours ago, Mr. F said:

Unfortunately, there hasn't been much legitimate scientific work done on Neocaridina, especially in relation to their pigment genes and inheritance patterns. Most of what is out there is papers on their anatomy and how they make good models for certain studies of molecular mechanisms. Most of what the information you get is anecdotal and through independent (hobbyist) experimentation; this is no different. So, you can take it with a grain of salt if you'd like, but I am certain my info is valid as I have seen a lot of it proven time and time again and many of the members here can verify with their experiences and maybe give a little more info. I hope that the lab I work at, although it is a marine lab, will allow me to do a bit of work on these topics in a legitimate scientific setting soon. Especially since it would be relatively inexpensive and easy. 

But, I'll take a look next week when I get a chance to roll onto campus and grab as many papers on neocaridina and caridina as I can.

 

If you had the time or had a couple of jornal titles i would love to read them. Once again thank you for your time and in depth explanation on the matter, you have elucidated a number of questions that i have had, i guess i can base a lot of my understanding off of trends of esteemed posters here, i just didnt want to take their word as gospel without any backing.

[Mr. F]

 

If you had the time or had a couple of jornal titles i would love to read them. Once again thank you for your time and in depth explanation on the matter, you have elucidated a number of questions that i have had, i guess i can base a lot of my understanding off of trends of esteemed posters here, i just didnt want to take their word as gospel without any backing.

You're very welcome, and you should be cautious taking advice. Most of us individually know what we're talking about for the most part, especially in certain areas (like blue neo lineage are one of my specialties), but as a collective community I think we've got a much greater knowledge base on ornamental shrimp than anywhere else (maybe except one or two).
I'm hoping to get a minION sequencer sent over from an advisor of mine so I can compare the color genes from each variation of neo finally ending this color debate once and for all. However, this will take some time (once I finally get the sequencer).
I'll send you over some papers when I have some time, I'm on vacation for my bday right now!

[Soothing Shrimp]

Mr. F will be doing us all a HUGE favor looking for color genes for neos.  We will still have the challenge of people selling phenotypes instead of genotypes, but this will give a much better understanding when crossing "pure bred" neos, and creating new variants.

 

I have a theory that neo colors may reside at different sites, so I find this especially interesting (!)

[JuanSan]

On August 14, 2016 at 0:13 PM, Mr. F said:

You're very welcome, and you should be cautious taking advice. Most of us individually know what we're talking about for the most part, especially in certain areas (like blue neo lineage are one of my specialties), but as a collective community I think we've got a much greater knowledge base on ornamental shrimp than anywhere else (maybe except one or two).
I'm hoping to get a minION sequencer sent over from an advisor of mine so I can compare the color genes from each variation of neo finally ending this color debate once and for all. However, this will take some time (once I finally get the sequencer).
I'll send you over some papers when I have some time, I'm on vacation for my bday right now!

 

On August 14, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Soothing Shrimp said:

Mr. F will be doing us all a HUGE favor looking for color genes for neos.  We will still have the challenge of people selling phenotypes instead of genotypes, but this will give a much better understanding when crossing "pure bred" neos, and creating new variants.

 

I have a theory that neo colors may reside at different sites, so I find this especially interesting (!)

 

Though my knowledge of shrimp genetics is limited, i could see the implications if his findings having a huge impact on the community. It makes me excited just thinking about it!

[Bryce]

To be honest I have know idea if those Neo charts are accurate.  I bought what was told to me as simply new blue shrimp a few years ago. I ve had this bunches for I couldn't even guess how many generations now. I get light blue, dark blue, rilli patterns,  greenish blue, dark black and blue, brownish blue. So honestly I have no idea.  I don't cull or do any selective breeding I just let them do there thing.  As you can see below the hodge poge I get.

[JuanSan]

2 minutes ago, Bryce said:

To be honest I have know idea if those Neo charts are accurate.  I bought what was told to me as simply new blue shrimp a few years ago. I ve had this bunches for I couldn't even guess how many generations now. I get light blue, dark blue, rilli patterns,  greenish blue, dark black and blue, brownish blue. So honestly I have no idea.  I don't cull or do any selective breeding I just let them do there thing. 

Wow such a variety in one tank but they all look happy and healthy

[Mr. F]

To be honest I have know idea if those Neo charts are accurate.  I bought what was told to me as simply new blue shrimp a few years ago. I ve had this bunches for I couldn't even guess how many generations now. I get light blue, dark blue, rilli patterns,  greenish blue, dark black and blue, brownish blue. So honestly I have no idea.  I don't cull or do any selective breeding I just let them do there thing.  As you can see below the hodge poge I get.

They're almost like nessies buy I've never seen a blue dream-looking one! Never had those with my nessies. This might be where the lime green variegated line from China arose from. Lucky you!

They were just sold as "blue neos"? Nothing else? Because all the patterns (except the green) sounds like carbon lineage. Maybe a test cross is in other?

Ps, When you stabilize the line to look like that one in the feeding dish, I want to buy some. lol.

[seaj]

I have some carbon rilis too, and they display a lot of variety, which I love. Some have clear flesh, others are blue fleshed, a few females have gold stripes, and a couple are almost solid black/dark blue. Their colors intensify when they are kept on black substrate, but you sometimes have to work to find them. I think they look best when they are back lit, since it makes their colors pop. Their eggs are usually a dark olive green. Among my most recent batch of babies, I found an orange/red baby. I hope it survives to adulthood. 

 

I will be getting in some chocolate shrimp tomorrow, and I think I may mix them in with my carbon rilis. 

[JuanSan]

28 minutes ago, seaj said:

I have some carbon rilis too, and they display a lot of variety, which I love. Some have clear flesh, others are blue fleshed, a few females have gold stripes, and a couple are almost solid black/dark blue. Their colors intensify when they are kept on black substrate, but you sometimes have to work to find them. I think they look best when they are back lit, since it makes their colors pop. Their eggs are usually a dark olive green. Among my most recent batch of babies, I found an orange/red baby. I hope it survives to adulthood. 

 

I will be getting in some chocolate shrimp tomorrow, and I think I may mix them in with my carbon rilis. 

Are you hoping to get anything specific? 

[Mr. F]

I have some carbon rilis too, and they display a lot of variety, which I love. Some have clear flesh, others are blue fleshed, a few females have gold stripes, and a couple are almost solid black/dark blue. Their colors intensify when they are kept on black substrate, but you sometimes have to work to find them. I think they look best when they are back lit, since it makes their colors pop. Their eggs are usually a dark olive green. Among my most recent batch of babies, I found an orange/red baby. I hope it survives to adulthood. 

 

I will be getting in some chocolate shrimp tomorrow, and I think I may mix them in with my carbon rilis. 

Careful mixing chocolates with carbon rilis . Chocolates are diamond lineage while carbon are, well, obviously carbon.

[ohmiko]

If blue velvet comes from red, and Carbon is carbon, is it possible that my female bv and male cr produced offsprings of more Carbon Rili because it happened. I see 5 cling on plants/ the tank walls and they have clear markings of dark head and dark tail but clear body. A friend told me blue velvet that comes from rili would have all the rili genes and I just got more confused :/ Thoughts? 

[Mr. F]

If blue velvet comes from red, and Carbon is carbon, is it possible that my female bv and male cr produced offsprings of more Carbon Rili because it happened. I see 5 cling on plants/ the tank walls and they have clear markings of dark head and dark tail but clear body. A friend told me blue velvet that comes from rili would have all the rili genes and I just got more confused :/ Thoughts? 

I would imagine tour blue velvet was mislabeled and is actually a light blue dream. I have several in my carbon rili tank. Buuuuut I could be wrong.