ShrimpP Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Anyone know what material will buffer the pH in the acidic range (somewhere between pH 5.5-6.5)? Very much preferably long term/lasting. What material are those marketed active substrates made out of? Maybe the material can be bought cheaper without a name brand attached to it? I actually don't mind using an inert substrate and just using some acidic buffering material in a filter or something. Just want it to be long lasting so it's more reliable/stable and doesn't require as much maintenance/replacement, as well as being more cost friendly. I would be using R/O water, so very low KH. Sorry for being a cheap-o, just seeing if I can save some money if I am going to be buying a lot. Pokeshrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 sorry to say this, but many of us have seen this trail attempted by many and they always end up back to what works. Buffering substrates. You are trying to be a "cheap-o" on the wrong product. Soil is one of the most important parts of a successful shrimp tank. There are many other things you can save $ that offer a better value, lights, filters, even foods, but trying to save a few $ on soil in the long run will be more work than its worth and probably an expensive lesson. Think about it this way.. $40 for soil, or you can easily lose much more than that on shrimp deaths. Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soothing Shrimp Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Just one shrimp may run you as much as soil. I feel for ya on the expense. High quality shrimp are expensive, too. I've used UP shrimp sand with good results. It's less expensive than some other soils, but not really for plants. EricM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Using buffering agents (not cheap) in the long term will cost as much or more than an active soil like the SL- Aqua Nature Soil Eric is selling at DiscoBee for $40 shipped. Plus its time consuming and you really need to understand water chemistry to be consistent. I was in the internet retail business when it first started to become another avenue to do business in the mid 90's until I retired a few years and Im still scratching my head how Eric (DiscoBee) gets it shipped to his business and resells it for only $40 shipped. Shipping cost especially from overseas is what dictates the cost of these soils. I hope the price will stay that reasonable for the near future because I have plans of expanding and Im almost out of controsoil. EricM and Soothing Shrimp 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 8 minutes ago, Vpier said: Using buffering agents (not cheap) in the long term will cost as much or more than an active soil like the SL- Aqua Nature Soil Eric is selling at DiscoBee for $40 shipped. Plus its time consuming and you really need to understand water chemistry to be consistent. I was in the internet retail business when it first started to become another avenue to do business in the mid 90's until I retired a few years and Im still scratching my head how Eric (DiscoBee) gets it shipped to his business and resells it for only $40 shipped. Shipping cost especially from overseas is what dictates the cost of these soils. I hope the price will stay that reasonable for the near future because I have plans of expanding and Im almost out of controsoil. Thanks! We decided to keep it cheap because we know how important a high quality substrate is and understand just like the OP, its a hard pill to swallow for many. Its our gateway product! The more people that have success the better for ALL OF US! adrand, svetilda, ShrimpP and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrimpP Posted March 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Haha, I knew that was going to be the answer and I do agree. I will likely dish the cash out on what is proven to work to make things a lot more trouble free. I do have a pretty good understanding on water chemistry though. I am still curious what natural materials would buffer the water in the desired acidic range though. Just like Calcium Carbonate material buffering in the alkaline range (with higher GH of course), but the opposite, I just don't know what acidic materials there are. How long does peat moss last generally? I prefer not having a tannin stained tank as well. I'm not sure if the tannins absorbed by activated carbon/charcoal or Purigen still make the water acidic or not, anyone know? Not sure if they still count as being in the water, just collected in one area (the media), rather than dispersed throughout the water column. What are those marketed acidic buffering substrates made out of? I'm still curious to find out. Are they specially made, infused with special stuff or something? Or are they just "raw" natural material? Wondering if they are just like Fluorite or Eco-Complete, just being high priced (inert high CEC in this case, not being active buffers) substrates when you can get Turface or Safe-T-Sorb for a fraction of the cost. Vpier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 26 minutes ago, ShrimpP said: Haha, I knew that was going to be the answer and I do agree. I will likely dish the cash out on what is proven to work to make things a lot more trouble free. I do have a pretty good understanding on water chemistry though. I am still curious what natural materials would buffer the water in the desired acidic range though. Just like Calcium Carbonate material buffering in the alkaline range (with higher GH of course), but the opposite, I just don't know what acidic materials there are. How long does peat moss last generally? I prefer not having a tannin stained tank as well. I'm not sure if the tannins absorbed by activated carbon/charcoal or Purigen still make the water acidic or not, anyone know? Not sure if they still count as being in the water, just collected in one area (the media), rather than dispersed throughout the water column. What are those marketed acidic buffering substrates made out of? I'm still curious to find out. Are they specially made, infused with special stuff or something? Or are they just "raw" natural material? Wondering if they are just like Fluorite or Eco-Complete, just being high priced (inert high CEC in this case, not being active buffers) substrates when you can get Turface or Safe-T-Sorb for a fraction of the cost. Its so much easier to keep water hard than soft. If your doing African cichlids all you need to is use crushed coral or coral sand and your good to go for years maybe even a decade but keeping things soft is different animal unless you are lucky enough to come from a region with natural occurring soft water. One of the reason's why the Thai's are some of the best fish breeders in the world is due to them having perfect water for breeding soft water fishes. For me the extra price is worth it so I can concentrate on other aspects of shrimp keeping. I would rather let the soil do all the work for me. Plus like Sooth said, you make a mistake which is easy to do especially using RO water you could easily loose the cost of Eric's soil with a couple of shrimps dying. I would hate to loose even one of mayphly's high dollar pintos trying to skimp on soil. Soothing Shrimp and EricM 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrimpP Posted March 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Yeah, I get it. I still like to learn about them though I'm pretty new here, what's Eric's brand of soil? I looked at the DiscoBee website and see multiple brands of substrate, don't know which one is his own brand. Is it the SL brand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 27 minutes ago, ShrimpP said: What are those marketed acidic buffering substrates made out of? I'm still curious to find out. Most buffering agents use phospahtes and that is a great way to get hair algae growing, there are some product that doesnt but these agents are not cheap. You may save $10-15 at 1st but you may end up spending that or more trying to keep the water soft plus the added work. The more tank you have with add to the cost and even more of your time, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, ShrimpP said: Yeah, I get it. I still like to learn about them though I'm pretty new here, what's Eric's brand of soil? I looked at the DiscoBee website and see multiple brands of substrate, don't know which one is his own brand. http://www.discobee.com/collections/sl-aqua/products/sl-aqua-nature-soil medium size EricM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Powder is where its at!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Just now, bostoneric said: Powder is where its at!!! really is the powder better? it hold plants better? Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 yes for plants and granules are small enough for the shrimp to move around. but if you have crazy amount of flow from filters it may move around a little. Soothing Shrimp and Vpier 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Thanks and good to know. I tend to overdo filtration, thats my cichlid side coming out. I do love these liitle pop up notifications with the new format Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShrimpP Posted March 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 Sorry for all the questions in advance, Does that soil release ammonia like some others (ADA Aquasoil) have been said to leach out when new? What KH and pH levels would I expect to see? Average lifespan on the product in use (average amount of water changes). Just for reference, it says 1 bag is enough for a 10 gallon. How many inches thick would the substrate be? (for planting purposes, - root masses). I suspect the powder grain sizes would be more compact and not as deep of a layer. Do either disintegrate over time or cloud the water a lot? Anything that makes it better than competitor substrates? (besides the price not taking any shots, just genuinely curious) But yeah, these new pop up notifications are great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, ShrimpP said: Sorry for all the questions in advance, Does that soil release ammonia like some others (ADA Aquasoil) have been said to leach out when new? What KH and pH levels would I expect to see? Average lifespan on the product in use (average amount of water changes). Just for reference, it says 1 bag is enough for a 10 gallon. How many inches thick would the substrate be? (for planting purposes, - root masses). I suspect the powder grain sizes would be more compact and not as deep of a layer. Do either disintegrate over time or cloud the water a lot? Anything that makes it better than competitor substrates? (besides the price not taking any shots, just genuinely curious) But yeah, these new pop up notifications are great! No experience with SL but I heard just a little bit. If you use an established sponge filter from another tank that is well populated and from some the type of water then you wont see any ammonia. I have added shrimp in 24 hours after setup using this method and once I did it within an hour due to an emergency with to ill effects to the shrimp. The only thing I saw was a small spike in nitrates but I did 10% water changes every other day for a week until nitrates came down. Shrimps did fine. I always have a couple of extra seed sponges running just for these situations. EricM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 that's not a technique we recommend, but it is possible. Even we have done it as an extreme test. BUT we always recommend at least a month to give the tank sufficient time to develop a healthy amount of biofilm and nitrifying bacteria in the soil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMG Aquatics Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 24 hours is FAST Vpier! Although it's best to wait a month like bostoneric said, I know there are many here who really hate waiting. It's best to have a pH monitor on hand for active substrates. 1) Pour substrate in tank. 2) Fill up tank to substrate level and add bacteria supplements and allow bacteria to seed substrate for 24-48 hours. (There's very little ammonia released when filled up to substrate only) 3) After 24-48 hours, fill up tank and measure pH for the next 24 hours. If it's not within the range you want, add baking soda to increase KH which increases pH. 4) Once KH is 0 and pH is within range for 2 days, do a 100% water change and add remineralizer, bacter ae, bacteria supplements. 5) Wait 4-6 hours and add shrimp. SL-Aqua substrate is currently the most cheapest active substrate in the market. EricM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrimple minded Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 While it's best to mature your tanks, it is always good information to have in your back pocket to know that you can do a "quick setup" with a given active substrate. I appreciated the fact that you could pull off a quick process with Controsoil, and I'm glad to know that it is possible with SL-Aqua......I'm in the same boat as Vpier, probably needing more active sub soon. EricM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vpier Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 I know waiting is always the best way but in a pinch it works. I should have mentioned no other bacteria supplements were not added to the soil like in a new setup since I already used a well established sponge filter, i will also take a few leaves and cholla logs from other tanks and add them just for the purpose of having some bio-film. Soothing Shrimp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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